Howdo,

The emulator is great, but let's get one thing straight, it is absolutely illegal to use it with a Mac OS, and it may well be illegal in it's own right. I have seen more than one post on this forum whinging about people asking about warez or dmg files, meanwhile they are breaking copyright laws themselves. Here is a post with many common misconceptions:



Wrong! You buy a very limited license to use the product under the conditions stipulated by the author. You do not in any fashion own the software. If it says you can only install Mac OS X on an Apple computer, you are breaking the law if you use it in any other way.



Wrong! It can be a breach of copyright law to reverse engineer.



Wrong! Reverse engineering and use of software again. Tut Tut!



As I said above, your "rights" are bugger all. Anyone wonder what "all rights reserved" means? That's right, it means you have none!



Maybe you consider that, but a court of law may think differently.

My point is: Moderators - don't be such hypocrites about the uses of pearpc.

Cheers,

Bollix - and yes I am a lawyer specialising in IP law.

Well,

Apple has not said anything yet, and apple is making profit from people buying the X disks. Apple would have said something about it already, because Pear is all over the net. Don't try to spoil the fun. It's just so cool to run a ppc in windows! Seeing it's so limited in what it can do, theres no point in getting all legal over it. I mean PearPC's a Technological Marvel. Have you tried it yet?



>neospy
giving his 2 cents.

P.S. If you are calling PearPC a tool, it's an Emulator!

Bollix, one thing you forgot to mention is that PearPC is also generating revenue for Apple.

Looking back on previous threads about people buying a Mac due to running PearPC and then craving the "full Mac experience", I estimate that PearPC has generated approximately $10,000 in PC sales for Apple. I hardly think they would risk such an obvious source of revenue over trivial legal questions.

i will probably buy a mac in 1-2 years due to the fact that i have seen the wonders of osx, so apple will get 1000$-2000$ from me because of pearpc.

There is nothing illegal about Pearpc itself (that I'm aware of). It's when you install and run MacOS on it that you're committing a crime. The tiny profit that apple makes from the very few of you who actually pay for Mac OSX is laughable. Apple makes their money from hardware.



Wake up. If and when Pear PC is able to run OSX at relatively good performance, Apple will step in. The $50 you paid to some guy on ebay isn't going to sway Apple in any direction.



Thank you! I've been trying to make this very point over here.

The truth is, so few who run OSX on PearPC actually have paid Apple directly for it... even when they say they did.

I suggest you ask Steve Jobs directly for his opinion on the use of OSX on PearPC.

If you like PearPC, the best thing you can do is put money away for the future legal defense of it. Using PearPC means you obviously don't agree with Apple licensing policy, so what business do you have giving Apple more money for something you don't agree with? Apple needs to, and eventually will, be provoked to test this portion of their EULA in court, however, PearPC currently has NO legal defense fund.

but what of the few of us (kakaze), who bought a mac because of pearpc, and the few (myself) who will probably buy a mac because of pearpc.

As the speed and stability of PearPC increases, there will be less need to buy a mac. Apple could stand to loose just as many, if not more, hardware sales to PearPC than you hope it gains.

then they should send someone to slow pearpc down.
besides, x86 hardware limits ppc emulation to no more than 100-300 mhz per 4ghz x86 for example.

Wait, let me get this straight. You're suggesting that PearPC should be kept slow, just so Apple won't be threatened?! Bwa.. Bwahhahaahahaha....

Exactly what x86 hardware limits are you referring to? The lack of 32 registers? That's not really a problem. Because it's "CISC" and the PPC is "RISC"? Again, not a problem -- in fact, the PPC being RISC-like actually makes it easier to decode the instruction set -- or could it be because the x86 has a number of instructions that aren't virtualizable? Nope, that only troubles x86 on x86 VMs (like VMware)...

...So what exactly slows it down? It's slow because the current PPC recompilers are in their infancy. They will get faster.

Now, knowing that PearPC will get faster, we can only assume it will become a threat to Apple at some point, even if you buy your copy of OSX, and have all good intentions in the world about purchasing a Mac at a later date.

Bollix? I think that's what he's talking right now...

_________________
Once you've made something idiot proof, they go and invent a better idiot!

So, after all, we are only discussing about the little portion of the Mac OS EULA where it says "[...] install on an Apple Computer [...]"


Is this really making all the difference? I mean, there are emulators for virtually anything... Playstations, x86 PCs, C64 sound chips, etc. etc...

Running games on them, installing Windows on them and all this is just fine but installing Mac OS on PearPC is "illegal"?? I have a hard time to believe this...

Also, no one is "breaking the law" here as long as no court has ruled so.




Do you believe that, really? PearpC is a niche product -- as emulators are generally -- and no matter how "fast" it gets... I doubt this will fundamentally change.



--kybernaut

At least under german jurisdiction this is wrong. If I buy software in a store I don't sign any contract. After I have bought the software any additional restrictions (of course except normal (copyright) law) are void.



For the sake of interoperability it's allowed to reverse engineer. Even in the USA. But it was not necessary to reverse engineer any software while developing pearpc.



I do have a lot of rights. And just because someone says I have no rights doesn't automatically make this true.

And - by the way - such sentences are completely meaningless. To claim copyright you don't need a "copyright blablaxxx" phrase. And for trademark you need not necessarily the (tm) or (R) sign. They are both applied automatically.

There is also that little bit where it talks about not re-distributing the software... Ya know, they can't really mean it.

I wish I could find a link to the response, but Apple was asked to reposnd a while back about the use of thier OS and ROMs, even legally purchased, on emlators -- it was pretty cut and dry. They don't like it.



It will be no more of a "niche product" than any PC emulator for the Mac. As a developer, I often would like a stable PPC emulator on my PC for testing. IMHO, the only thing that has kept Mac emulation out of the main-stream so far has been the legality of it.

Apple's current business model has them making money on hardware. It's been said that they actually loose money on software.

If PearPC was able to run at an acceptable pace, I certainly wouldn't have bought a Mac.

MOL _is_ a "niche product". The number of PPC platforms other than Apple's that it's able to run on are limited. That's not the case with PearPC.

We're not as sensible here in the US. As long as you have enough money, you can make just about anything stick -- possibly even loosing your first born to Mr. Gates because you bought your copy of Windows on the 1st of December.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but I think there is no doubt about the fact that software piracy is illegal...



Since PearPC relies on Open Firmware (as any modern Macintosh computer does) there is no need for imaging or reverse engineering a ROM and running into any legal issues accompanied by that...



This will eventually depend on usability and speed...



But what about Apple's core clientel? Audio/video professionals, designers, layouters, and other creatives that prefer to work on the Mac? Grandpa and Grandma? For them, PearPC will never be an option!



Sure, they will probably not like PearPC, but I doubt they will (be able to) do something about it...



--kybernaut

And that's my point. It's illegal for you to copy and distribute OSX, because you are not given the privilege to do so in the EULA. In fact, it is explicitly denied... as is running OSX on anything but an Apple Computer.

(Note, as was already pointed out by Seppel, this is subject to your region. Not all counties have the back-asswards copyright/IP/patent laws of the US).



Correct, but, tweaks are necessary to get OSX to load. All Apple would have to do is show that substantial effort was put in to the project to get OSX to work on it, effort that was not necessary for another OS, to avoid getting the case tossed out. Then they can drag PearPC down a road of financial despair from malicious litigation.



Not necessarily true. Many already have migrated to PC, as has much of the software they use. If they are able to bring some of their "legacy" apps with them to the PC, the transition would be eased. It was once thought that Teachers would never leave the comfort of their Macs... well, a great number have.



"Be able to" isn't part of the equation, at least in the US... "want" is the only valid variable.

I'll work from the bottom up so I don't repeat myself.



If there is anything that is not public domain that had to be worked out specifically to get the OS to run, there is a chance that copyright laws have been broken. You may be breaching countless patents too. Independant thought is not a defence



A contract is not necessarily written. You refer to normal copyright law, but obviously have no idea what it means. It means the author retains all rights to a body of work, and can license them out under any condition they see fit. Therefore if it says in the EULA "only use this while wearing a bra on a Tuesday" you are breaking the agreement which you freely entered into when you purchased the license if you do not do so.



As far as the software goes you do not.



You are breaking the license agreement.



So if you kill someone, you are only breaking the law if you get caught, tried and found guilty? Mmmm. There is a difference in the act, innocence and guilt.



Breaking the law for the greater good is not a defence. You are talking about morals and ethics, not the law.



That's fine, but your use is still illegal



Maybe Apple can't be bothered with the case. I am stating a simple fact of law. I am not justifying or condemning it. The law is the law. As far as revenue goes, everyone who uses pearpc with Mac OS is costing Apple the revenue generated from buying one of their computers, the only legal way to use their software.



I use the tool myself, but I am fully aware of the legal implications. You're right it is a bloody marvel and great fun. What I don't like is when I see misinformed posts in this forum in which people who download warez OSs and software are looked down upon from people who are breaking the exact same laws by using Mac OS on a pearpc.

Bollix me thinks you are wrong, I know that the copyright law does not stop you from building a copy for yourself, you just cannot share the information with others. and if you buy something then you do indeed own it, to do as you wish, so long as you do not cause the inventor or author to suffer by your use. there is no law that says I cannot figure out how someone does something, but it does say I cannot copy and make profit from others work. so I could build a Mac from scratch and not break the law as long as I destroy it before i die..... and don't let anyone use it or tell anyone how i did it.
As for an emulator being a copy... it is not, it is a program written to behave in a certain way, it is not a copy of the origional but rather the work of the author, and in this case he has put it in the public domain.
So I use this program to run an OS that I have purchased, and I own, and I don't share with others.

I'm no lawyer but I know for sure that there were lawsuits here in Germany about software EULAs and it was ruled that the use of the product cannot be restricted in any arbitrary aspect... If I remember correctly, it dealt with a Microsoft EULA about bundled software, eg. the Windows copy that comes with your computer... In Germany, bundled software therefore is (has to be...) always a 'full' license (no matter what the EULA says). You can use it with whatever computer you want and you are free to sell it on ebay etc.



I think this is not as clear as you want to make us believe. Especially copyright and patent law is very different from country to country.



WaReZz discussion is not tolerated in these forums. It's as simple as that... nothing else.



--kybernaut

[Edited for clarity]

Try more than 10k.

I myself just added 2800 to Apple's coffers.

I miss my money.

Of course , Well....Apple is getting thier sales from PearPC users , since most of us ,go out and buy a copy of MacOS X...

ACK. But for a valid contract both sides have to agree. For a example a contract like "If you read this posting you agree to send me 1000 bucks per month" would certainly be void.



I do know what copyright means, but I can only speak for german copyright law ("Urheberrecht").



German copyright law only controls distribution of software. The is no single law that controls usage of software. I.e. it's prohibited to install Mac OS X in pearpc _and_ somewhere else. But as long as I have keep a single installation I can install it whereever I like since this is not restricted by law.



If an author wants to impose additional restrictions on me he needs a contract with me. If I go to a store and by a software I don't sign (neither written nor oraly) any contract with the original author of this software. I sign a contract with the seller (money <-> software) but this has nothing to do with the topic. After I have bought the software I have the right to do whatever I like to do with it except things that a prohibited by law. If a software author want to impose usage restriction he has to sell his software on a license basis (where he and get me get contract with each other).

i don't think that apple would let go the profits it gets from pearpc users, because if there was not pearpc, they would get nothing from these people (they would stay on x86), but now, most of these people buy osx, and some of them (including me) will probably or already has got out and bought a mac because they saw the wonders of osx.

Yeah, I have been helping my aunt at her school to get ready for the school year and i was dissapointed that they took her powermac 5500/250 out of her room. So I found it for her and re hooked it up with permission from the principal. I am planning on buying a mac from them, load os 9 on it (it's running 8.5) and put a g3 uprade card in it. See how pear can make you crave a mac! I have like 4 choices of which mac and they have powermac 5500/250 powermac 5500/200 and 2 ttypes of powermac lc's (I am not getting an lc! the 5500's have A/V Personality cards in them!) I am going to look around for any higher model macs!


CURSE YOU PPC!


>Neospy