How to extract data from a physical Mac

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craigers01
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How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

I am trying to migrate from a PowerMac (5400/120) to Basilisk II MacOS 8.1. I have managed to get my emulator up and running!

Now I need my application and application data from the physical Mac. How can I export the data from the physical Mac? It is not on the network. Ultimately, I plan to use HFVExplorer to copy the data to an HFV file.

Thanks,
Craig
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

What kind of data do you want to migrate? What kind of applications do you run on your PowerMac?
Note that BasiliskII is a 68k emulator, it will not run PPC-only applications.

PPC emulators are SheepShaver and QEMU.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

My application is a custom application developed to communicate with a device via serial. I do not know what PPC-only means. All I know is the app works on a physical PowerMac 5400/120 running MacOS 8.1.

I prefer to get an entire image/copy of the hard drive. There is a sub folder on the single drive that contains the application and a bunch of files that are managed by the application.

I pull the hard drive. It was SCSI and I had it duplicated to an IDE drive. I then plugged it into an external drive case, but Windows ignores it. If I could read the data, I feel like I should be able to transfer it to a HVF file and read it within Basilisk II.

Craig
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

Okay, I googled PPC. I think I understand where you are guiding me: to SheepShaver. I started out there, but I read somewhere, that MacOS 8.1 should be used on Basilisk, and newer, on SheepShaver. Do you have an opinion on that?

I also started up a SheepShaver on 9.0. It may be the case that my application will run fine on 9.0. I was trying to bring up the exact same version for the best chance of compatability.

In either case, I still need to get my application/data from the physical system.

Thanks!
Craig
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by adespoton »

Back when I did this, I backed up to disk images which I then burned onto CD in ISO9660 format using Toast. I opened the CD in a more modern computer and was able to mount the disk images directly in BII and SheepShaver.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

craigers01 wrote:I read somewhere, that MacOS 8.1 should be used on Basilisk, and newer, on SheepShaver.
SheepShaver runs System 7.5.3 through MacOS 9.0.4, so it should run MacOS 8.1.*
But applications that run on MacOS 8.1 will usually also run fine on MacOS 9.

* For 7.5.3 through 8.1 an old world rom file is needed. MacOS 8.5 through 9.0.4 will run with either old world and new world rom files.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by 24bit »

Same here. Made DiskCopy6 images of all my volumes on my iMac Bondi blue or PPC 7100/80av and moved them to a new home.
If you want to continue to use a Mac app talking to a serial port, options are few.
I´m rather sure FusionPC can talk to serial ports, Basilisk Build 142 should work too, same for QemuPPC.
Never used a serial connection via Mac emulation myself though.
FusionPC wants a Windows98 (or lower) host OS and Qemu is work in progress.
Basilisk II Build 142 on a Windows 10 32bit host would be my first try.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

I have a Basilisk II 140 emulator running, so I may start there. I have a physical PPC out for repair (headgap). Maybe I should request that they back my hard drive to CD. Another path may be getting networking enabled.

If there anything include in MacOS 8.1 that would allow me to test serial comms (Like HyperTerm). If serial comm are not going to work, I'd like to figure that out sooner than later. The app uses two comm ports (one via modem?).

Thanks!
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by 24bit »

I always wanted to try a serial connection with Basilisk II out of curiosity.
Maybe time to look for a null-modem cable on the attic.
I´ll have a look whether Z-Term from Basilisk II does talk to a receiver the next days.

Is your serial app coded for 68k?
PPC apps will not work with Basilisk II, as you will know.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

I do not know if the program is coded for 68K. This was created for us many moons ago. If I can get it extracted, I will try it in Basilisk, then Sheep Shaver if necessary.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by 24bit »

File transfer over serial port is working on my side, thanks to the old Bisilisk 142 build, Cat_7 did re-build.
As I have some old rigs around, those still came with one or two COM ports.
Connected the COM-1 ports with a null-modem cable using HyperTerminal on a Windows 2000 machine as receiver.
Sender was ZTerm in Basilisk II 142 on an XP host.

Image

Transfer is working both ways, as expected. I could "max out" the data rate to 57600 baud using hardware handshake and xon/xoff as flow control.
A 700k file needs about two minutes to travel over the serial cable, patience is needed.

With newer hardware it will be less likely to find a COM port (aka RS-232, V.24) still.
It may be possible to make use of USB to Serial adapters, but I´ll leave that for someone else.
Also HyperTerminal was removed from Windows 7 and later.
(Seems it was possible to extract the needed files from XP to use the app with Windows 7.)
Another app supporting the Z-Modem protocol may possibly be found though.
It should be noted too, that none of the transfer protocols is aware of resource forks.
If Mac apps shall travel over serial, they must be converted to .sit or .hqx prior to transfer.

Now I´m really curious about the app craigers01 has in mind. :)
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

I am still chugging along. Today I was able to get my App installed. It seems to work in both Basilisk and SheepShaver.

I am still waiting for the extraction of all of my application data/files/etc. In the meantime, I managed to get some serial communications against a laptop. I hope to plug this science experiment into the physical machine soon. The communication with the laptop did not work as expected; it may have to do with it not properly emulating the tool communication it attempts to emulate.

Details for anyone interested: This Mac lives in a Semiconductor manufacturing plant. It acts as an "end point detector" connected to a Plasma Etcher. it communicates with the Plasma Etcher via SECS protocol (A serial protocol for the Semiconductor industry.) The tool sends Plasma intensity data to the Mac, and the Mac uses the intensity graph to determine when to "end the processing" on the Etcher. There is a second serial port that connects to our "Host", which remotely controls the Etcher via the Mac.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by ClockWise »

Nice to hear that your old Macintosh still has a job to do (for the moment).
Last edited by ClockWise on Wed Apr 22, 2020 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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craigers01
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

I am making some progress. However I am not having a successful serial communication.

Windows Hosts Comms Okay
I have a laptop connected running serial comm software. I was able to get my laptop to communication with my Windows host PC without issue.

Application Error
The application sends the laptop a byte that is essentially a request to send a message. My emulator sends a reply bit (okay to send me a message). But the application does NOT send the next message part as expected. It seems that the Mac/Application is NOT seeing my reply.

Environment
My windows host has an USB->RS232 cable attached. It is comes up as COM4. I have SheepShaver (as well as Basilisk 142) configured to use COM4 as a modem port. In the Mac, the modem is configured as a 9600 Null Modem.


BOTTOM LINE:
For some reason, the mac emulator does not seem to see my reply.

Any thoughts?

Thanks!
Craig
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by adespoton »

Most likely this is a buffer issue... what happens if you start by trying to establish a regular serial session and send a full 32 bits?
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

I realized that I have more details to share (likely over my head), but here are the contents of my serial.log. It looks to me like it RECEIVED my BYTE of data?!


B2: 04/30/20 16:21:23:473 SerialInit seriala=COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:23:488 XSERDPort constructor COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:23:488 SerialInit serialb=FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:23:488 XSERDPort constructor FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:29:902 XSERDPort::open device=COM4,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:091 XSERDPort::configure, config=52234
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:091 Interpreted configuration: 9600,8,2,0
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:137 old timeout values: -1 0 0 2 10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:137 new timeout values: -1 0 0 2 10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:137 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:137 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:137 XSERDPort::output_func started for device COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:153 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:137 XSERDPort::input_func started for device COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:153 XSERDPort::control code=17
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:153 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:153 XSERDPort::close
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:168 XSERDPort::input_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:168 XSERDPort::output_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 XSERDPort::open device=FILE,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 XSERDPort::output_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 XSERDPort::input_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:216 XSERDPort::control code=17
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:231 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:231 XSERDPort::close
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:231 XSERDPort::input_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:231 XSERDPort::open device=COM4,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:231 XSERDPort::output_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:403 XSERDPort::configure, config=52234
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:403 Interpreted configuration: 9600,8,2,0
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 old timeout values: -1 0 0 2 10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 new timeout values: -1 0 0 2 10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 XSERDPort::output_func started for device COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 XSERDPort::input_func started for device COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 XSERDPort::control code=17
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:450 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:465 XSERDPort::close
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:465 XSERDPort::input_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:465 XSERDPort::output_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 XSERDPort::open device=FILE,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 XSERDPort::output_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 XSERDPort::input_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:528 XSERDPort::control code=17
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:543 XSERDPort::control code=18
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:543 XSERDPort::close
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:543 XSERDPort::input_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:30:543 XSERDPort::output_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:848 XSERDPort::open device=FILE,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:852 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:852 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:852 XSERDPort::input_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:852 XSERDPort::output_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:852 XSERDPort::control code=8
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:860 XSERDPort::configure, config=60426
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:860 XSERDPort::control code=10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:860 set_handshake 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:860 XSERDPort::control code=11
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:860 XSERDPort::control code=8
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:871 XSERDPort::configure, config=60426
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:872 XSERDPort::control code=10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:872 set_handshake 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:872 XSERDPort::control code=11
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:872 kSERDStatus: faking status for LPT port or FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:880 XSERDPort::control code=9
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:880 XSERDPort::close
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:880 XSERDPort::input_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:880 XSERDPort::output_func terminating gracefully
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:36:880 XSERDPort::open device=COM4,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:069 XSERDPort::configure, config=52234
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:069 Interpreted configuration: 9600,8,2,0
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 old timeout values: -1 0 0 2 10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 new timeout values: -1 0 0 2 10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 XSERDPort::output_func started for device COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 XSERDPort::control code=8
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 XSERDPort::configure, config=60426
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 XSERDPort::control code=10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 set_handshake 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:107 XSERDPort::input_func started for device COM4
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:154 XSERDPort::control code=11
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:154 XSERDPort::control code=8
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:154 XSERDPort::configure, config=60426
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:154 XSERDPort::control code=10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:154 set_handshake 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:208 XSERDPort::control code=11
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 XSERDPort::control code=9
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 XSERDPort::control code=1
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 KillIO done
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 XSERDPort::control code=1
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 KillIO done
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 XSERDPort::control code=8
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 XSERDPort::configure, config=60426
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 XSERDPort::control code=10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:239 set_handshake 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:286 XSERDPort::control code=11
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:286 XSERDPort::control code=8
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:286 XSERDPort::configure, config=60426
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:292 XSERDPort::control code=10
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:292 set_handshake 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 XSERDPort::control code=11
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 XSERDPort::open device=FILE,config=0xCC0A
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 Semaphores created
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 Threads created, Open returns success
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 XSERDPort::output_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 XSERDPort::control code=9
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 XSERDPort::control code=1
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:354 KillIO done
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:354 XSERDPort::control code=1
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:354 KillIO done
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:339 XSERDPort::input_func started for device FILE
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:727 XSERDPort::prime_out
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:729 output_func transmitting 1 bytes of data...
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:729 1 bytes transmitted
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:729 .
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:729 triggering serial interrupt
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:747 XSERDPort::prime_in
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:749 input_func waiting for 1 bytes of data...
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:749 1 bytes received
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:749 .
B2: 04/30/20 16:21:37:749 triggering serial interrupt
craigers01
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

@adespoton,

You may be on to something. I'm a bit handcuffed not being able to test simple serial communications. I am using (SECS) which is a protocol on top of serial. The application is talking to a SECS simulator (less interesting than it sounds). Thus, I cannot just send an arbitrary number of characters.

However, I was able to try to send numerous SECS messages while the application was apparently waiting for a response, and THAT changed the behavior! Previously, it "hung up" indefinitely. I had to KILL the Mac from task manager. When I force some data to the Mac while it is waiting on a response, it gives me an error that suggest it was unable to initialize a SECS communication. But it sure seems to have chomped on the bytes I sent.

Buffering somewhere fits this symptom!
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by adespoton »

Yeah; that lines up with what I experienced a decade ago with a similar setup. I can't for the life of me remember how I fixed it; I think I may have injected dummy data into the buffer to get it to flush (secondary monitor system on the interface). I'm pretty sure I didn't modify the emulator to auto-flush the buffer after a certain number of ticks, although that would probably be the better solution.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by 24bit »

Craig, wouldn´t it be easier to switch to a known working app on the PC side?
This branch of Putty has ZModem capabilties incorporated.
http://leputty.sourceforge.net/
I did not try LePutty so far, but can give it a go, in case that helps.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

@24bit,
The App I am using on the PC side, SECSIM, is a known working app. It speaks the same protocol (SECS) as the Mac App.


All,
If SheepShaver is buffering my IO, whereas the physical Mac does not, then I may need to attempt this fix in the source code. I suppose I could do that, but, maybe there are some people who already have an environment set up to build the source that could help? In short, my protocol requires a byte-by-byte data transmission.

I'd be grateful if someone can clarify what the current criteria is to flush the serial buffers (time, number of bytes, etc.)? Maybe it will help figure out if this is my issue.

I have the same issue in SheepShaver and Basilisk 140. So this can apply to both versions.

thanks!
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by adespoton »

Old serial handling for BII and SheepShaver is found here: https://github.com/cebix/macemu/blob/ma ... serial.cpp

It indicates that a 32-bit unsigned int is used to hold the data.

It also appears to have debug data it writes to help track errors; it's possible something may need to be set during compile time to output this to stdout.

Down at the bottom, there's a serial interrupt routine, which should allow the packet to close at any point when sending, but I haven't studied the code closely enough recently to be certain of when things get closed when listening for RS232 data. At least it's somewhere to start.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by dadreamer »

adespoton wrote:It also appears to have debug data it writes to help track errors; it's possible something may need to be set during compile time to output this to stdout.
As long as I can remember, to get a debug build of SheepShaver/Basilisk the option "#define DEBUG 0" should be set to 1 in the sources. Then the program is able to output D(bug("...")); messages to the console. On Windows it calls OutputDebugString function, so you could track the resulting messages with any debuggers of your choice (e.g., DebugView from SysInternals).
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by 24bit »

Fired up my old T60 with Windows 10, as it still has a COM port at the dock.
That way I could talk to another Windows 10 rig via ZTerm from Basilisk II Build 142, the one Cat_7 kindly made available.
From SheepShaver, ZTerm could not open a COM port.
My guess is that COM ports were depreciated over time, just like floppy or SCSI.
Again, the build here is the only one working for me so far: https://surfdrive.surf.nl/files/index.p ... b/download
On a side note, HyperTerminal extracted from Windows XP does still work fine with Windows 10-64, but you will know that already.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by dadreamer »

Don't know if it helps in this case, but in 2016 I had success using COM ports in SheepShaver (System 7.5.3 w/ Old World ROM). It were purely virtual ports though, created with com0com null-modem emulator on the host OS (Windows). In SheepShaver I was choosing my port on Serial tab and after that I was able to open up the port in my IDE, which was LabVIEW 5.0 or maybe earlier (as those from Mac Garden). The transfer worked fine in both directions: host -> guest and vice versa.
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Re: How to extract data from a physical Mac

Post by craigers01 »

Okay, I'm probably going down a rabbit hole that I should avoid.. I feel like I could figure this out if I could debug the application (or add log statements). I am not very experienced in compiling Cpp code. I downloaded the source code; I installed Eclipse IDE. But I cannot figure out how to use the make files. They seem to expect me to be building this in Unix (e.g. 'SHELL = /bin/sh'). Have I downloaded the wrong source? Any guidance on getting my IDE configured properly?

To recap:
The Mac application uses serial communication (SECS protocol), which I have connected to a laptop running the same protocol. My "serial.log" file shows that the Mac application properly sends one byte out. My laptop sees the byte and responds with a byte. serial.log shows one byte received. However, the application "hangs", seemingly waiting for that byte. This is the same behavior on SheepShaver and Basilisk 140. I am using a USB->Comm port device, and configuring SheepShaver to connect a Modem device to "that" port. The Modem is configured in the Mac as a Null Modem 9600 (9600 is the proper baud).

I suspect:
The emulator is buffering the input (not sending the ONE byte in real time) or there is a Handshaking issue.

I would be interested if anyone else can receive ONE byte into SheepShaver (with no additional termination character such as CR).

Any other guidance is appreciated! I'm close to giving up on this, but I've invested a lot of time. No idea how close I am. :(

Thanks!
Craig
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