SheepShaver constantly freezes running 'Ares'

[J. Gryphon]

I'm using the recommended build of SheepShaver on Mavericks. The emulated OS is 8.6.

I picked up SheepShaver to help me run old Mac games. For the most part, it's done an adequate job, but it seems to be stymied at Ambrosia Software's "Ares".

The game starts up okay, but SheepShaver freezes as soon as the game pulls up the scoreboard at the end of a level. Also, Ares 1.2.0 supports 'add-ons' which can change the game's ships, weapons and levels. SheepShaver freezes with a black screen as often as not when you try to load one of these.

I ran OS 8 and 9 for nearly ten years, and ran Ares under all kinds of conditions. I know the Classic Mac OS was unstable, but it was never anywhere close to being as bad as it is here -- I think Ares has crashed more under SS in the few days I've spent trying to get it to work than it did in all those ten years running it natively.

What's bizarre about this is that an acquaintance of mine has had success running it, under an old version of "Chubby Bunny". I'm not sure which version of SheepShaver it uses, but I should be able to find out within the next few days.

Any advice that y'all might have to get this running would be appreciated. I'll try to answer any questions you have to the best of my ability.

[yksoft1]

Try removing all Quicktime-related files and install Quicktime 4.1.2.

[J. Gryphon]

Done, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to have much of an effect.

Basilisk II seems to be able to run it very well, for the most part. Unfortunately network play doesn't seem to work with Basi, at least not out of the box.

[Ronald P. Regensburg]

"Chubby Bunny". I'm not sure which version of SheepShaver it uses,

As far as I can tell, COI "Chubby Bunny" uses the May 2006 2.3-Pre build by Gwenole Beauchesne. I cannot think of a reason why the game would run in that version and not in the latest version. The 2006 build is 32-bit only. Did you try to run the current build in 32-bit mode? (See Finder Info for the application.)

[J. Gryphon]

It seems that it was already set to 32-bit (unless I did it before and simply forgot).

I will say that I tried COI to see if I could get the same results that he apparently did. There are apparently three different versions of it, the original one (which he uses), and two updates, "4.0.1-2.1" and more recently "4.0.1+". Neither the original or the updates seemed to do any better for me than my normal SS installation (except for minor differences in how they died -- the middle version of COI crashed to the OS X desktop instead of freezing and having to be force-quit). I've never personally observed it running on his side, but he did say it didn't crash or freeze, so he's definitely had a different experience than I have.

He did say that he was unable to get modern SS to run it without problems, though. So to sum up our experiences:

Me: Ares crashes or freezes no matter what version of SS I'm using.
Him: Ares is broken on new SS, but is stable on COI (of which he's running the original version, not 4.0.1-2.1 or 4.0.1+).

He's said that he's been able to get it to work well on a Mavericks partition. As I mentioned, I run Mavericks myself, so it doesn't seem like there should be any differences there. All in all it's very confusing.

Like I said, I've never seen his setup in person, so I don't know everything about it. I can ask him more about his hardware/host software or whether he's changed any of COI's settings, if that will help.

[Cat_7]

I would also ask about the rom file, the amount of ram and other settings.

Best,
Cat_7

[Ronald P. Regensburg]

I would also ask about the rom file, the amount of ram and other settings.

Not easy for him to tell, because in Chubby Bunny everything is hidden to the user. The rom file is hidden inside the application package and made invisible to the Finder and the settings are not visible anywhere in the application's interface and cannot be set or changed by the user.

The path to the rom file inside the version 4.0.1 application is:

Code: Select all

COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny".app/COI.app/.old.rom

so it is probably an old world rom.

The settings that version 4.0.1 writes to the preference file are (with the Chubby Bunny folder on my desktop):

Code: Select all

disk /Users/ronald/Desktop/COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny "/COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny".app/COI.app/.Classic.dmg
rom /Users/ronald/Desktop/COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny "/COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny".app/COI.app/.old.rom
keycodefile /Users/ronald/Desktop/COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny "/COI (Classic-On-Intel) V4.0.1 "Chubby Bunny".app/COI.app/.BasiliskII_keycodes
disk /Users/Shared/400Meg.dmg
disk /Users/Shared/800Meg.dmg
disk /Users/Shared/1200Meg.dmg
disk /Users/Shared/MyOldHD.dmg
disk /Users/Shared/COIHD.dmg
extfs /Users/Shared/
screen win/1024/855
windowmodes 0
screenmodes 0
seriala 
serialb 
bootdrive 0
bootdriver -62
ramsize 268435456
frameskip 0
gfxaccel true
nocdrom false
nonet false
nosound false
nogui true
noclipconversion false
ignoresegv false
jit true
jit68k false
keyboardtype 5
ether slirp
keycodes true
mousewheelmode 1
mousewheellines 3
dsp /dev/dsp
mixer /dev/mixer
ignoresegv false
idlewait false

Note that if one wants to run regular SheepShaver after running Chubby Bunny, one needs to do a full new setup.

[J. Gryphon]

Here's the reply I got from him:

I am using a mbp i7 2.3Ghz, 16GB RAM, SSD, running 10.6.6. I was running Chubby bunny out of the box unmodified from a RAM disk.
I have also run the same set up using 10.9.1 without issues.

For comparison, I have a iMac 8,1 with Intel Core 2 Duo 2.66, 2GB RAM, and a regular 1TB hard disk.

[Ronald P. Regensburg]

As I predicted, he is not aware of any SheepShaver settings in Chubby Bunny. Apart from using a very old SheepShaver version in Chubby Bunny, the main difference with your setup may be the rom file. Chubby Bunny uses an old world rom file. If you use a new world rom file, try replacing it with an old world rom file. (Both old world and new world rom files can be downloaded from the redundant robot site.)

[J. Gryphon]

Thought I would give an update.

I'm trying it with an Old World ROM. Probably 2/3rds of the time SheepShaver goes into a deep freeze upon loading the game (before the Ambrosia logo screen comes up). If it loads it, then the game will function as intended, except it will freeze about half of the time when the scoreboard comes up.

All in all a very crashy experience. The sad thing is that it does seem better than how I remember it running with the previous ROM. It's still quite suboptimal, though.

Before this I think I was using a New World ROM straight from one of my old Macs (probably the Bondi Blue iMac, but I don't remember for sure).

[Cat_7]

What version of ares are you running? I played the demo from ambrosia in Basilisk, it didn't crash a single time.

Did you try to "zap" the pram and nvram before starting with the new rom?

Best,
Cat_7

[J. Gryphon]

The standard 1.2.0. I have a copy of the later, unreleased 1.2.1, but since that only improved Classic compatibility (at the expense of native performance, if I remember right), I didn't think it would be useful.

I tried it on Basi as well, when I first saw how badly SheepShaver was doing. Basilisk II does seem to run Ares a little more reliably than SheepShaver does (although only a little). The biggest problem with Basi is that it can't run Hera (Ares' plugin editor), because Hera is PPC-only.

I didn't zap the PRAM to begin with, but I tried it after reading your reply -- unfortunately, it doesn't seem to have helped too much.

I've tested running it without a plugin, and the game starts up much more reliably in that case. However, it can still hang on end-game score or loss screens. If you have the time, I'd recommend that you try getting killed a few times and see if you can get SS to freeze.

Unfortunately, since you don't have a registered copy, you can't test running plugins on it, which is too bad, since that seems to be a major source of my trouble.

[Vidmaster]

Using Ares v1.2 under the Windows Sheepshaver build from Februrary 24, it still stutters a lot. I tried both a OLD and NEW WORLD rom for testing, no difference. Tried disabling JIT or changing the renderer (my default is OpenGL) to no effect.
Once out of the menu and ingame, Ares stutters a lot --- but I do not think it is really a performance problem to be honest, as the game is running at an acceptable speed most of the time. There is something going on in the emulation layer here

[adespoton]

Has anyone tried running it under QEMU or MAME to see if the different emulator core makes a difference?

[Ronald P. Regensburg]

Did you try shortening the sound buffer in SheepShaver? Shortening the length of the sound buffer can prevent delayed and choppy sound in some applications but will increase CPU use.

Since March 2021, the sound buffer can be shortened in BasiliskII and SheepShaver builds from kanjitalk755 source by manually adding or editing a line in the prefs file. The default setting is:

Code: Select all

sound_buffer 0

Setting the value to 1 will halve the length of the sound buffer, setting the value to 2 will again halve the length, and so forth.

[Vidmaster]

Did you try shortening the sound buffer in SheepShaver? Shortening the length of the sound buffer can prevent delayed and choppy sound in some applications but will increase CPU use.

That is a good suggestion (note that CPU usage should not be a problem on my rig, I am on an Intel-i7 13700, that should be beefy enough . Unfortunately, `sound_buffer 2` did not make a difference.
However, it got me thinking: The game's music plays smoothly in the menus, the animations in menus and briefings are fine and the menus themselves are fine. The stuttering is restricted to gameplay and if you pause during gameplay, the stutters vanish too (which can be observered, once again, by listening to the background music).
I cannot believe the JIT would have to compile instructions that often and the stutters never go away, so maybe it is some sort of timing or threading issue in the emulator itself, triggered by what this game is doing?
With this in mind, I also tried it the game with`idlewait false` to rule out a problem with that setting, but to no avail. Ares remains unplayable due to these stutters and the reason for them is illusive.

A bit of personal background, as I also posted something regarding Ferazel's Wand yesterday:
I still own a second generation iMac (the lamp) from my teenager years, a piece of hardware I keep around so I retain access to many of my childhood favorites (as it still runs MacOS 9 in classic, while also running the Pangea 3D titles). However, I actually want to get rid of that iMac for years now, as it is just in the way. I am a big believer in game preservation but prefer emulation over original hardware in most cases (an opinion many will likely disagree with ). However, I cannot get rid of it until I have a sensible way to retain access to my various childhood favorites... In recent years, I have come closer to that goal thanks to Iliyas Jorio's brilliant Pangea Ports, the EV Nova Port for Windows getting essentially fixed and SheepShaver working pretty fine for many games, like Glyph 3. However, many essential games remain inaccessible, like The Belt, Deep Trouble, Ares and Ferazel's Wand. Every year, I check out Sheepshaver to see if there were any major developments but, thus far, no luck. Right now, I am in such a phase and have once again set up a Sheepshaver MacOS 9, which explains my posting spree here.

[adespoton]

Did you try shortening the sound buffer in SheepShaver? Shortening the length of the sound buffer can prevent delayed and choppy sound in some applications but will increase CPU use.

That is a good suggestion (note that CPU usage should not be a problem on my rig, I am on an Intel-i7 13700, that should be beefy enough . Unfortunately, `sound_buffer 2` did not make a difference.
However, it got me thinking: The game's music plays smoothly in the menus, the animations in menus and briefings are fine and the menus themselves are fine. The stuttering is restricted to gameplay and if you pause during gameplay, the stutters vanish too (which can be observered, once again, by listening to the background music).
I cannot believe the JIT would have to compile instructions that often and the stutters never go away, so maybe it is some sort of timing or threading issue in the emulator itself, triggered by what this game is doing?
With this in mind, I also tried it the game with`idlewait false` to rule out a problem with that setting, but to no avail. Ares remains unplayable due to these stutters and the reason for them is illusive.

A bit of personal background, as I also posted something regarding Ferazel's Wand yesterday:
I still own a second generation iMac (the lamp) from my teenager years, a piece of hardware I keep around so I retain access to many of my childhood favorites (as it still runs MacOS 9 in classic, while also running the Pangea 3D titles). However, I actually want to get rid of that iMac for years now, as it is just in the way. I am a big believer in game preservation but prefer emulation over original hardware in most cases (an opinion many will likely disagree with ). However, I cannot get rid of it until I have a sensible way to retain access to my various childhood favorites... In recent years, I have come closer to that goal thanks to Iliyas Jorio's brilliant Pangea Ports, the EV Nova Port for Windows getting essentially fixed and SheepShaver working pretty fine for many games, like Glyph 3. However, many essential games remain inaccessible, like The Belt, Deep Trouble, Ares and Ferazel's Wand. Every year, I check out Sheepshaver to see if there were any major developments but, thus far, no luck. Right now, I am in such a phase and have once again set up a Sheepshaver MacOS 9, which explains my posting spree here.

Have you checked out the QEMU Screamer build on here? It runs OS 9.2.2, has audio, and has a rock solid core emulation. It can even play Nanosaur and Bugdom now. And unlike SheepShaver, whose core emulation hasn't really changed in 20 years, QEMU emulation is still getting regular improvements. There's also DingusPPC, which is currently under rapid development, and is shaping up to be an even more hardware-exact emulator than you get in QEMU. MAME is also working on PPC emulation, but being a documentation project, is rather slow, and there's still a ways to go before the PPC emulation is actually usable (just something to check in on every year).

On the EV Nova front, I have to admit that after beating EV, EV Override and EV Nova and various packs for each, I moved on to Escape Velocity which fixes a number of game mechanics issues with the EV series -- and it also has plugins for EV re-creations (which use the new game mechanics), if you really want to play the games that inspired it.

On the hardware side, I switched from iMacs to Mac Minis years ago, because they store better This lets me still pull out real hardware when needed, but doesn't take up a bunch of space.

Anyway, back to the stutter: this sounds like there's a chokepoint in the game I/O somewhere; the game itself likely has one I/O process blocking another in a manner that works fine due to hardware timing on real hardware, but isn't handled so well in a serial hardware emulator where each instruction is handled in series.

I hope you're keeping a list of unusable games somewhere, because they're great benchmarks for testing emulator improvements over time.

[Cat_7]

At least Ares 1.2 seems to run fine with Qemu-screamer and MacOS92 in 800x600 and 256 colours.
The belt also runs. Sound seems OK but gameplay is very slow.

Best,
Cat_7

[Vidmaster]

On the EV Nova front, I have to admit that after beating EV, EV Override and EV Nova and various packs for each, I moved on to Escape Velocity which fixes a number of game mechanics issues with the EV series -- and it also has plugins for EV re-creations (which use the new game mechanics), if you really want to play the games that inspired it.

I do not understand this sentence as written, I assume you meant to say that you moved on to something like Endless Sky instead?

I hope you're keeping a list of unusable games somewhere, because they're great benchmarks for testing emulator improvements over time.

I keep a list of games I check every one or two years. The essentials , although the list is shrinking with great re-releases or source ports. As my recent posts here in the forum suggest, Ares and Ferazel's Wand are on it. It is still too long though...
If you want a notoriously difficult one, that does not even properly boot in anything I have tried thus far and never liked classic either, try the Mac-release of X-Wing.

At least Ares 1.2 seems to run fine with Qemu-screamer and MacOS92 in 800x600 and 256 colours.

Looks like a need to check out the alternative emulator. I was under the impression that it had no audio and since my goal is to play classic games, that was a no-go.
Thanks for the info

[adespoton]

On the EV Nova front, I have to admit that after beating EV, EV Override and EV Nova and various packs for each, I moved on to Escape Velocity which fixes a number of game mechanics issues with the EV series -- and it also has plugins for EV re-creations (which use the new game mechanics), if you really want to play the games that inspired it.

I do not understand this sentence as written, I assume you meant to say that you moved on to something like Endless Sky instead?

Yup; multitasking is not my friend today. That was meant to say Endless Sky, not Escape Velocity.

For QEMU, the official QEMU-system-PPC build does not have audio. You'll need the Screamer build provided on these forums, which does include audio and works for PPC Macintosh emulation (but has a few issues preventing it from being merged back into the official release for QEMU-system-PPC).

SheepShaver is unlikely to have the major architectural changes made to its emulation core that would be needed to fix emulation for the long tail of still-non-functional software titles that exist. However, around 8 years ago we figured SheepShaver's lifetime was limited and it would irrevocably break any year. And then people repeatedly stepped in to patch it and keep it working. So... anything's possible

Having said that, if you provide your list of "not working" titles to the developers of DingusPPC, those may become some of their benchmark test cases for getting the actively developed emulator working

I know that this happened for MACE when I sent some suggestions the developers' direction -- they ended up testing and then implementing bits of the toolbox that enabled the stuff I was interested in running. MACE of course is still a LONG way away from implementing Carbon (they're just finishing off 24-bit support and have implemented bits of the 32-bit toolbox needed to run very specific software), so that's probably not an "emulator" to have on your watch list this decade.

[Cat_7]

Star Wars X-Wing runs fine in Qemu.

Best,
Cat_7

[Vidmaster]

Star Wars X-Wing runs fine in Qemu.

Its getting more attractive by the minute

[Vidmaster]

Ares does indeed run, without any flaws thus far, under the most recent QEMU (Screamer) on a "real" Windowds 10 employing an emulated MacOS 9.2, and it is loved for it