Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:56 pm
adespoton wrote:I think you may be a bit confused about what you're doing when you emulate OS 9.
On your physical computer, you run an operating system that ties all the physical parts together and enables you to operate other software.
SheepShaver is the equivalent of that physical computer, but written in software so that it runs inside the physical computer's operating system.
Instead of a physical hard drive like a computer has, SheepShaver uses files that are stored on the physical hard drive. We call these "disk images" because they are a snapshot of exactly what we'd see on an equivalent physical drive.
So when you start up SheepShaver, it creates its virtual hardware, and one of the things it does is opens those disk image files as if they were physical drives. Once they're open, SheepShaver can read and write data there. Your MacOS9 drive is where the OS 9 operating system for the virtual computer (SheepShaver) is stored, and the operating system is loaded into SheepShaver's memory from this location, allowing SheepShaver to boot and display data on its virtual screen (which is then displayed on your computer's real screen).
When you install software on SheepShaver, you're installing it on one of these virtual disks that is then saved as a file on your actual computer. Since SheepShaver treats this file as an actual hard drive, it can read/write to it, load applications into SheepShaver memory from it, and run software.
When you save a file from an application running in SheepShaver, you should be saving it back to this virtual disk. The file that encompasses this disk is on your actual computer, so it is trivial to back up the entire file.
adespoton wrote:OS X has the ability built-in to also mount these virtual disk images as actual disks -- Disk Utility (and it's back end software) is used to manage these images. So you can create a volume in SheepShaver, and if you save it in HFS+ format, which OS X also recognizes, you can then open the image in OS X and manipulate the files as you see fit.
Because it's a bad idea to have this file open by both SheepShaver and OS X at the same time, and because SheepShaver also runs on Linux and Windows which can't read HFS+ disks, the authors of the software modified things slightly so that an actual folder on the host computer could be presented inside SheepShaver as a HFS+ disk. However, it isn't really an HFS+ disk, and so if anything unexpected is encountered when SheepShaver's OS's read and copy routines are accessing the disk, it will return an error and fail to work properly. The software enabling this feature was designed to work specifically with the OS 9 Finder, specifically for copying data files. Everything else that it does (like copying resource forks to HFS+ or APFS folders, etc.) is purely a bonus that may or may not work.
adespoton wrote:So here's how things are laid out:
Your computer's Hard Disk
Your OS 9 disk image file
Your computer's memory
Running SheepShaver -- a subroutine that can read/write "file" objects to a folder on your computer's hard disk.
A direct connection to your OS 9 disk image file
So when running SheepShaver, you work on the virtual computer, and ignore your real computer. If you want to copy something off of SheepShaver, you have two options: save it to the virtual "Unix" disk, or shut down SheepShaver, and open up the virtual OS 9 disk in OS X.
adespoton wrote:If you want to back everything up, use Time Machine or some other backup software to back up the disk image. You can then revert to earlier versions of this disk image to load OS 9 and all the applications/files in that earlier state. It's just like making complete copies of your hard drive over time, and having them all available if you want to roll something back.
If you want to back up only a specific file, you copy it to the host computer and back it up like any other file.
adespoton wrote:Alternatively, CharlesSoft (Charles is a member on these forums) has generously made their OS 9-era backup software free for use, meaning that you could create another virtual disk image, load it into SheepShaver as well, and use the OS 9 backup software to back up files inside that environment to the secondary disk image. Your host computer, if you've got Time Machine running, will automatically back up all of these disk images again, every time they are modified.
adespoton wrote:Does that all make sense?
Wed Jan 17, 2018 9:03 pm
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:24 pm
Woah! What is this? how could it even happen?
Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:27 pm
somniferous wrote:Adespoton, I can save the file to the virtual disk "Transfer" (which I have created with your direction). I cannot copy it back from the "Transfer" to the OS9 environment and have a working file. It can only live and continue to function (as far as I can tell) within Sheepshaver virtual environment (image?). If it moves outside that environment, it is lost to me (cannot be re-opened or opened at all). Unlike the text files that I can move back to the OSX and return to OS9 (only if they are unrevised).
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:10 am
adespoton wrote:I can see there's still confusion. I'll try to break it down further.
On your OS X system, you have storage, likely called "Macintosh HD". You can save files on it.
On your SheepShaver system, you have storage, likely called MacOS9. You can save files on it.
When you run an Application, say, TextEdit.app, on your OS X system, you can open it up, create a new document, and save it anywhere on Macintosh HD -- likely in Macintosh HD/Users/jb/Documents.
When you run an Application, say, MacProject Pro, under SheepShaver, you can open it up, create a new document, and save it anywhere on MacOS9 -- say, a Documents folder on that drive at MacOS9:Documents. (: is used as the path separator under OS 9).
If you want to access that file under OS X for any reason, you can go to the Finder in SheepShaver (the OS 9 Finder) and drag the file from MacOS9:Documents to your Unix drive. This will copy the file.
If you wanted to use that file in the future, you would open the Unix drive, select the file, and drag it into MacOS9:Documents. Then you can double click the file, or go into MacProject Pro and use File->Open to open the file.
Now it's possible that when writing out to some filesystems, you might lose the resource fork of the MacProject file, rendering it unusable.
Apple used to use, from Mac OS 9 through OS X Sierra, a file storage system called HFS+. With OS X High Sierra, they switched to a new file storage system called APFS (Apple Filesystem). This tells the OS how to store files on the hard disk.
As far as I know, APFS knows how to save resource forks just like HFS+ did. However, SheepShaver may have taken shortcuts in how it does things. Personally, I haven't had any problems copying files with resource forks from the finder in OS 9 to the Unix drive; my files stay intact. But years ago I stopped trying to do this from within applications like MacProject Pro, as that often resulted in failed copies. This hasn't changed with OS X High Sierra.
adespoton wrote:When I say "this virtual disk" I'm talking about the disk *inside* SheepShaver -- NOT the Unix volume, but one of the other ones that shows up on the desktop.
adespoton wrote:Do not save files to the OS 9 desktop by the way, as those files just get written into a hidden "desktop" folder on the related drive. This makes things confusing, as both the OS 9 disk and the Unix disk have a desktop folder, and you won't be able to tell which place the files are actually stored in.
adespoton wrote:So if the only reason you're copying the MacProject files to the Unix folder is to have a backup copy, just stop doing it: the entire disk image that the entire OS 9 installation is stored on, plus MacProject and all its files, is saved in one (or possibly 2) files on your computer already, and THESE get backed up by Time Machine every time their contents change, assuming you have Time Machine enabled. Time Machine then allows you to revert back to earlier versions of this file, or just restore a copy of the file to open it in OS X and pull out an old version of a file that has changed.
Think of it like Russian dolls:
You have one big Russian doll (your computer's hard drive).
Inside it is a smaller Russian doll (the disk image you're booting in SheepShaver)
Inside THAT is the files and applications you're working on in SheepShaver.
Both OS X and SheepShaver have the ability to pull the head off the largest doll, pull the head off the next doll, and look at the contents. Just don't do it to both at the same time.
SheepShaver ALSO has the ability to poke a hole through the middle Russian doll such that you can move files between the smallest Russian doll and the largest, assuming you use the right tool to do it and nothing goes wrong.
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:30 am
adespoton wrote:Third, it's probably a good idea to append .dmg to the end of your MacOS9 and AddedApps disk images, and change your prefs file to reflect the new names. Then you always have the option of just opening the disk images in OS X when SheepShaver isn't running, and you have access to all the files in those images.
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:05 pm
somniferous wrote:adespoton wrote:Third, it's probably a good idea to append .dmg to the end of your MacOS9 and AddedApps disk images, and change your prefs file to reflect the new names. Then you always have the option of just opening the disk images in OS X when SheepShaver isn't running, and you have access to all the files in those images.
How would I append the names with .dmg?
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:07 pm
Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:23 pm
somniferous wrote:So I created this folder "Transfer" and it does not appear as "Transfer" anywhere in my OS9. It appears as "Unix" This is where I copy the file I want to appear in OSX. This part works. I tried the Stuffit thing and it works too.
somniferous wrote:Not sure what you mean "shows up on the desktop". You mean the SS desktop, but there are only the AddedApps and Unix here. Doesn't seem possible to keep Unix and create any other volumes. Although I have tried.
somniferous wrote:So where do I store the files? I do need to be able to reference the files. Aliases from OSX do not work in SS for me. I have been storing the files with working resource forks to the Unix disk for as long as I have used SS. I have been able to access them and operate on them as they continue to exist in the Unix disk. But that process no longer works for me.
somniferous wrote:Thank you for making it clear. What is true is that there is something happening to the file (perhaps the resource fork) when the file is moved to "Unix" or even after the file is moved to Unix
somniferous wrote: (since I am having problems working on the file (it will not save: disk error) when in Unix.). I used to be able to open my MacProject file while it resided in the Unix folder and operated on it there in the Unix drive. Now, once the file is moved to "Unix", I can only operate on it if I stuff it first and then move it back to the OS9 desktop and unstuff it on OS9 desktop.
somniferous wrote: Unstuffing it in the Unix folder gives me file error -39. Unstuffing it on the OS9 desktop gives me a file I can use but is not a good place to save it. This is not a very effective way for me to work. And now I have these files that I need to delete (move to trash) on the OS9 desktop. Which if I understand you correctly I should not do.
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:22 pm
adespoton wrote:somniferous wrote:Not sure what you mean "shows up on the desktop". You mean the SS desktop, but there are only the AddedApps and Unix here. Doesn't seem possible to keep Unix and create any other volumes. Although I have tried.
Would you be able to provide a screenshot of your OS 9 desktop in SheepShaver? If those are the only two that show up, then you are booting off of the AddedApps drive and not the MacOS9 drive. This could be part of what's causing you issues.
adespoton wrote:somniferous wrote:So where do I store the files? I do need to be able to reference the files. Aliases from OSX do not work in SS for me. I have been storing the files with working resource forks to the Unix disk for as long as I have used SS. I have been able to access them and operate on them as they continue to exist in the Unix disk. But that process no longer works for me.
You store the files on your disk image... in this case, AddedApps would work. There's no need to export them from your OS 9 environment.
adespoton wrote:somniferous wrote:Thank you for making it clear. What is true is that there is something happening to the file (perhaps the resource fork) when the file is moved to "Unix" or even after the file is moved to Unix
Are you only using the Finder to move/access the file? You should only be using the Finder to move/access the file. Not MacProject Pro. MacProject Pro should ever only access a copy that is stored inside SheepShaver's environment.
adespoton wrote:somniferous wrote: (since I am having problems working on the file (it will not save: disk error) when in Unix.). I used to be able to open my MacProject file while it resided in the Unix folder and operated on it there in the Unix drive. Now, once the file is moved to "Unix", I can only operate on it if I stuff it first and then move it back to the OS9 desktop and unstuff it on OS9 desktop.
This is how it's supposed to work. OS X and OS 9 are different environments. The Unix folder is purely for moving files between the environments using the Finder; you should never attempt to operate on files stored on the Unix volume from within OS 9, other than to copy them onto an internal drive using the Finder. In some cases under Sierra and earlier, it *could* work, but you could also damage the files this way (I know I have when I've tried, for over a decade).
[/quote]adespoton wrote:somniferous wrote: Unstuffing it in the Unix folder gives me file error -39. Unstuffing it on the OS9 desktop gives me a file I can use but is not a good place to save it. This is not a very effective way for me to work. And now I have these files that I need to delete (move to trash) on the OS9 desktop. Which if I understand you correctly I should not do.
Once again, you should not be performing actions on files stored on the Unix drive from within OS 9. The only thing you should be doing with them is using the Finder to copy them to an internal drive, or using the Finder to copy them to the Unix drive.
I don't quite understand your "\[there\] is not a good place to save it. This is not a very effective way for me to work." Do you need your MacProject files available for some other use in OS X? If they're only ever used in OS 9, just keep them on your OS 9 disk (AddedApps in this case).
Once again, do not save things to the OS 9 desktop. Save them to the internal drive -- you've at least got AddedApps on there.
When you drag a file from the Unix folder to the OS 9 desktop, it's still on the Unix drive, just stored in Transfer/Desktop instead of sitting in Transfer. In order to use the file, it must be moved INTO an internal drive such as AddedApps.
I think this is where you're having problems -- you aren't losing the resource forks, you're just trying to use the documents when they're still stored in OS X in the Transfer/Desktop folder.
To delete these files, under OS X, go into your Transfer folder. You'll see a Desktop folder. Go into that, and all your files will be there. Move them to the OS X Trash to delete them, or move them back to the Transfer folder to try again to copy them to an internal drive in OS 9.
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:33 pm
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:51 pm
adespoton wrote:I think you may have missed my section where I told you to go into the Transfer/Desktop folder to delete the items on the OS 9 desktop.
If you did what I suspect you did, there are currently no documents being stored within your OS 9 environment; they're still being written to the Desktop folder in your Unix drive (/Users/jb/Transfer/Desktop).
This should be quick to clean up.
adespoton wrote:As for tracking all documents in one location... yes, that is an issue. There's really not much of an easy fix here, barring reverting to Sierra on your Mac, or possibly creating an HFS+ partition on your Mac where all the data is stored together. This might work for you if the problem is being caused by Apple's new file system.
Another alternative would be to move from SheepShaver to QEMU which provides a few methods of accessing files inside the OS 9 environment from outside, including network shares. This is still cumbersome to set up though; Programmingkid has created a user interface that makes it easier, and that's posted on the QEMU forums on here. QEMU has the added advantage that it supports OS 9.2.2, which has networking improvements designed to work better with OS X.
This means that you should be able to turn on file sharing under OS 9 and see the files in OS X, and conversely, turn on Appletalk Filesharing under OS X and see the file share under OS 9. Doing this with 9.0.4 does not work so well; 9.0.4 can't see the OS X file shares for one thing, which once again breaks your workflow.
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:11 pm
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:32 am
adespoton wrote:Save the files to a local drive (your App one or your OS 9 one), stuff them with DropStuff, transfer that to the Unix drive, and then under OS X expand them there. If your old files still work on the Unix drive, these will too. The main problem is with creating new files on the Unix drive other than by copying them there using the Finder.
But I'm not confident they will continue to work into the future, so make sure you are making backups.
Then there's the issue of your vanishing Unix drive under OS 9 -- there's still something odd going on in your configuration that we haven't sorted out.
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:02 pm
somniferous wrote:I think you are telling me that I should be able to create a new disk Image or mount a new drive (not sure which or both) and not lose Unix. (which keeps happening) At the moment I need to finish my work. After I will work on that.
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:56 pm