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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:41 pm 
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Here are some photos of MacQEMU 2.0 beta 3:

The Setup Window:
Image

The File Sharing window:
This is where you can share a host folder as a USB flash drive on the guest, or enable network file sharing using AFP, FTP, or SMB:
Image

The Send Key window is where you can add keystroke menu items:
Image

This window displays the commands used to run QEMU - the text can be used directly in the terminal:
Image

The Preferences window is where you can add your own version of QEMU to use:
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:06 pm 
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Programmingkid wrote:
It's a great idea. It would be very helpful for people who want to build applications that support older versions of Mac OS X. I have heard there are patches that would make recent versions of Mac OS X run in QEMU. Here is the page: https://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~somlo/OSXKVM/. Haven't tried it out myself yet. I prefer VirtualBox for the x86 versions of Mac OS X.

I have began making guides on how to run certain operating systems in QEMU. Here is the list so far:
https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Gue ... ingSystems


Thanks for this! It looks like they're trying to run recent-ish 64-bit OS X versions on Fedora; I'll have to fiddle with those instructions and see if I can set up the correct environment to run 10.4-10.6 32-vit x86 on an OS X host. The problem today is that modern 64-bit architecture has drifted enough from what 10.5 ran on that 10.5 doesn't work properly in a vanilla VirtualBox install (and VMWare and Parallels won't even attempt it -- but also fail to install Server).


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 1:35 am 
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adespoton wrote:
Programmingkid wrote:
It's a great idea. It would be very helpful for people who want to build applications that support older versions of Mac OS X. I have heard there are patches that would make recent versions of Mac OS X run in QEMU. Here is the page: https://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~somlo/OSXKVM/. Haven't tried it out myself yet. I prefer VirtualBox for the x86 versions of Mac OS X.

I have began making guides on how to run certain operating systems in QEMU. Here is the list so far:
https://wiki.qemu.org/Documentation/Gue ... ingSystems


Thanks for this! It looks like they're trying to run recent-ish 64-bit OS X versions on Fedora; I'll have to fiddle with those instructions and see if I can set up the correct environment to run 10.4-10.6 32-vit x86 on an OS X host. The problem today is that modern 64-bit architecture has drifted enough from what 10.5 ran on that 10.5 doesn't work properly in a vanilla VirtualBox install (and VMWare and Parallels won't even attempt it -- but also fail to install Server).

I do all my QEMU work on a Mac OS X host. I haven't tried out Fedora yet.

I'm thinking the reason why something like Mac OS 10.5 doesn't run in VirtualBox is because 10.5 is picky about which chipset it likes. To make Mac OS 10.6 install in VirtualBox I had to run a command to set the chipset of my Mac OS 10.6 VM.

If anyone has figured out how to make an x86 version of Mac OS X run in QEMU, I would appreciate a hint. I could make a tutorial page for that version of Mac OS X in QEMU's wiki.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 5:35 am 
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adespoton wrote:
Programmingkid wrote:
The problem today is that modern 64-bit architecture has drifted enough from what 10.5 ran on that 10.5 doesn't work properly in a vanilla VirtualBox install (and VMWare and Parallels won't even attempt it -- but also fail to install Server).

Hmm, it's strange for me that you have troubles with x86 Mac OS X...A couple of years ago I made much experimenting with them in qemu, VBox,VM Fusion and Parallels (on OS X10.8 then) .
As for Parallels, the only thing I achieved was to install and run Leopard 10.5.8. I installed it as Hackintosh (not vanilla distribution), don't remember whether it was iATKOS or iPC.
In qemu I managed to run 10.4 (some versions) and 10.5. I have just tried a Tiger installation cd image and Leopard hd image I still have. Both work fine. The essential thing with qemu, as I recollect, is to assign -cpu core2duo. And use Chameleon/Chimera or a Hackintosh distribution.
In VMWare Fusion I managed to run almost everything from 10.4.0 (even so! there were hacks to do it,though reliable Hackintosh began from 10.4.6) up to 10.13.Yesterday I tried my 10.4.7 VM, works OK. Versions older than 10.6 should be either installed like Hackintosh or some patches should be applied to unblock installation of non-Server OS's. Now on MacOS 10.13 I don't have them applied, but I have them applied on 10.12.6 (changes in menu when choosing OS type).
I don't remember the results with VBox, but as I prefer VMWare and Parallels, they were somewhat worse for me.
By the way, I still have a working Leopard on an HD partition. It's hard to boot it (have to use DVD disc for it and some attempts may be needed). Never was able to have network or sound working. My machine has Core i5 2400 (overclocked).


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:10 pm 
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alex195812 wrote:
adespoton wrote:
Programmingkid wrote:
The problem today is that modern 64-bit architecture has drifted enough from what 10.5 ran on that 10.5 doesn't work properly in a vanilla VirtualBox install (and VMWare and Parallels won't even attempt it -- but also fail to install Server).

Hmm, it's strange for me that you have troubles with x86 Mac OS X...A couple of years ago I made much experimenting with them in qemu, VBox,VM Fusion and Parallels (on OS X10.8 then) .
As for Parallels, the only thing I achieved was to install and run Leopard 10.5.8. I installed it as Hackintosh (not vanilla distribution), don't remember whether it was iATKOS or iPC.
In qemu I managed to run 10.4 (some versions) and 10.5. I have just tried a Tiger installation cd image and Leopard hd image I still have. Both work fine. The essential thing with qemu, as I recollect, is to assign -cpu core2duo. And use Chameleon/Chimera or a Hackintosh distribution.
In VMWare Fusion I managed to run almost everything from 10.4.0 (even so! there were hacks to do it,though reliable Hackintosh began from 10.4.6) up to 10.13.Yesterday I tried my 10.4.7 VM, works OK. Versions older than 10.6 should be either installed like Hackintosh or some patches should be applied to unblock installation of non-Server OS's. Now on MacOS 10.13 I don't have them applied, but I have them applied on 10.12.6 (changes in menu when choosing OS type).
I don't remember the results with VBox, but as I prefer VMWare and Parallels, they were somewhat worse for me.
By the way, I still have a working Leopard on an HD partition. It's hard to boot it (have to use DVD disc for it and some attempts may be needed). Never was able to have network or sound working. My machine has Core i5 2400 (overclocked).



Yeah; it's weird. Ever since updating to an i7 architecture from Core 2 Duo, my 10.5.x VBox VMs have failed to run under VBox, VMware or Parallels, even with the EFI patches, and even with the BIOS bootloader. 10.4.7 continued to work for quite a while, but I was unable to create a new VM from install DVD.

I haven't got the 10.6 non-server hack to allow it to run under VMWare or Parallels, but it works fine under VBox -- I just can't create a new VM from DVD anymore, even doing the "restore DVD to disk partition" trick.

All the tricks that I used to use to force architecture etc. back in 2011 no longer seem to be enough. No idea what my problem is, and others on here have reported success with similar hardware.

-cpu core2duo makes sense, as does using legacy BIOS with an EFI bootloader instead of the built-in EFI. I haven't tried that combination yet, but it should create systems that will age forward well, so thanks for the suggestion!


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:37 am 
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Here is the link to VMWare unlocker : https://github.com/DrDonk/unlocker
It doen't work in High Sierra for me (makes VMWare non-working), but it works fine in 10.12.It allows vanilla installation of MacOS older than 10.7.
Though I can use my VMs in VMWare without it (hackintosh way, call your system "Other" or "FreeBSD" and install with Chameleon bootloader or use a distribution like iATKOS or iPC, which is quite legal now for older MacOS X's are abandoned software currently).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 4:38 am 
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alex195812 wrote:
Here is the link to VMWare unlocker : https://github.com/DrDonk/unlocker
It doen't work in High Sierra for me (makes VMWare non-working), but it works fine in 10.12.It allows vanilla installation of MacOS older than 10.7.
Though I can use my VMs in VMWare without it (hackintosh way, call your system "Other" or "FreeBSD" and install with Chameleon bootloader or use a distribution like iATKOS or iPC, which is quite legal now for older MacOS X's are abandoned software currently).



Yeah; that tool does what I usually do by hand; it nops the check for the version string, which allows any version to be installed. But yes, using Chameleon with a Hackintosh distro works better.

However, the "legal because it's abandoned" argument is a bit wishful thinking; it's still misusing the copyrights of Apple & Co., but as there's nothing to be gained from them pursuing infringers, they tend not to. Copyright in the US is 70 years plus the life of the author -- and in this case, the authors all assigned their copyright to a multinational corporation that shows no signs of dying.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:19 am 
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So our usage of Tiger or Leopard in qemu-system-ppc is illegal? Qemu is not an Apple hardware. I think, copyright law is applicable for source code only, for binary distros it's License Agreement which expires 7 years after the end of official tech support and software updates. For example, Windows NT4 and Windows 2000 are abandoned and it's legal to redistribute/modify/disassemble them while Windows XP becomes abandoned in 2021 and Windows 2003 in 2022 (7 years after ending of official support). I'm not a lawyer though, but, say, winworldpc.com holds this line publishing different distros. They never publish Windows XP releases (and declare they won't), only betas (which is considered legal).
Though, it's not the theme of this forum
[edit] I thought the notion of abandoned software is law-regulated as several years ago I read about it somewhere on the net (7 years without support and so on). But now, looking up about it, I can't find it. Either something has changed or I've been confused. Anyway, it seems that you're right.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Yeah, the license agreement and abandonware arguments are (at least in the US) wishful thinking of how things *should* be.

Copyright is about making copies -- Apple holds the copyrights pretty much in perpetuity, and they tell end users how they can use the copies (of anything, not just source code) through license agreements, which are a license to use a copy. Without the agreement, or outside of what it allows, there is no right for a third party (other than as exempted by the Constitution, and amendment, or by the Library of Congress) to use the software, compiled or source code.

"Fair use" is pretty broad, and there are other exemptions as well. Archive.org is an official LoC archive, so it gets a copyright exemption on pretty much everything it stores. That means they can also provide copies for individual use, but those receiving the copies cannot then make further copies of the software. This is a useful end-run around the abandonware issue.

But EA, for example, rigourously protects their old software in the courts, even titles whose support ended in the 1980's.

Yes, this is kind of off topic, but it's useful for those on this thread to be aware of the issues.

As for using Tiger or Leopard in qemu-system-ppc, if you've got a Mac computer you're running it on, I'd consider that to be "legal enough". Technically, the license doesn't cover that use, but it doesn't really not cover it either. The case for Tiger and Leopard Server is clearer, as running it on virtualized hardware is explicitly allowed. Same goes for Snow Leopard Server. Starting with Lion, this language made it into the Client software as well, indicating that you just needed to have Apple hardware somewhere underneath the software stack.

However, all Apple licenses specifically state that it needs to run on Apple hardware as part of the agreement. So having a copy is legal until you run it on non-Apple hardware, at which point your license is invalid, making having a copy invalid unless you fall under one of the exemptions.

However, the "7 years after the end of official support" rule is generally good to use, as it is rarely in any company's best self-interest to raise a lawsuit against a product that is this far out of date. That doesn't make it officially legal though, just morally and ethically OK, and unlikely to ruffle feathers.

Nintendo, however, also keeps a tight rein on old BIOSes and software, as they like to re-release titles for new hardware, and if someone can just pull up the original titles under emulation and play them, they lose the sales of the re-releases. Protecting the BIOSes via copyright means that any emulator has to clean-room implement the entire operating system instead of just referencing the BIOS code, which makes creating emulators significantly more difficult.

So the TL;DR of this is that qemu-system-ppc itself is legal, and possessing Tiger/Lion/etc. install media is legal, and combining the two is a grey area that may or may not be legal, pending litigation, which is unlikely to happen.

If Apple *DID* sue someone over running an ancient OS under an emulator and they won, then the grey area would be gone, and it would then be illegal for anyone else to do so without getting a different license from Apple.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:16 am 
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Thank you for the explanation! Now it looks clearer. Seems that we're on "bleeding edge"of legality (and development,too).
So a couple of curious facts concerning qemu-ppc Mac OS sound issues.
I've tried Debian ppc image from here: https://people.debian.org/~aurel32/qemu/powerpc/ with qemu mac99 machine.I tested debian-squeeze.I applied " -soundhw hda,es1370,ac97 -device usb-audio" on qemu command-line( and also -net user -net nic,model=sungem).Well, debian sees 3 sound devices: qemu-usb-audio, es1370 and one more: "Asahi Kasei AK4531(OSS mixer)". All tree devices work flawlessly.Sungem works, too.Screamer not visible, though.
The second fact.I tried qemu sound hardware in qemu-system-ppc64 -M pseries with OpenSuse 13.2. Usb-audio device is present and works OK (no crackling, no disrupting).
Looks like the sound problem is due to something specific to Mac OS emulation in qemu. (What could it be?), otherwise the result wouldn't depend so much on emulated OS...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 5:39 pm 
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It probably has something to do with how the operating systems prioritize audio.

Apple OSes assume that there's specific dedicated hardware, and so set a high priority on signal passthrough to the hardware. Linux assumes that it doesn't know the hardware all that well, and so instead has a high priority daemon running that dispatches the signals as needed.

As a result, Linux will be "good enough" in most cases, and Apple will be great if you've got the actual hardware, but the audio processing will run at the same priority level as everything else if you don't have the virtual hardware configured to provide instant response -- core audio isn't as forgiving as ALSA, for example.

It's likely that this issue also shows up with the mouse and keyboard, but isn't as noticeable there.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:43 am 
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If so, we need the emulated hardware be closer to what OS's drivers suppose them to be? Screamer, usb-audio, adb mouse and keyboard. Not easy It requires a very detailed knowledge.
An alternative is creating drivers fitting existing virtual hardware.A year ago I thought about porting Hackintosh VoodooHDA and EnsonicAudioPCI to PowerPC platform, but programming skills and so on.... By the way, I have VoodooHDA working in qemu with x86 Leopard. Sound quality is not ideal, though better than we have for ppc.This way we miss MacOS 9, though.
Also, on OS level, could some changes matching qemu hardware be made in configuration files, like plists in MacOS X ?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:08 am 
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Back to the original topic, I seem to recall some new world Mac shipped with 8.6.1.........

I suppose that won't really help, as I think someone was wanting to boot BeOS, and I think that required 8.5. Tho the original iMac's shipped with 8.1 and they were New World machines.

Does anyone know if you can boot BeOS on a New World iMac?

As to the most recent topic of this thread:

Image

Image

Image

That's High Sierra running in Qemu on a linux host, with KVM, and PCI Passthough of the GTX 1050 and the SSD 960 EVO NVME drive( boot drive ).

No patches to OS X really necessary, I'm running a patched version of Qemu that has emulation for the SMC, tho I do use Clover to boot the OS.

That's on a Ryzen 7 1700, passing the -cpu Penryn command, and a few others.

It's not emulating the CPU, I'm using KVM, it's just telling the guest that the CPU is a Penryn, and the Ryzen 7 supports all the instructions that the Penryn has.

It's nasty fast.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:09 am 
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As I recollect, BeOS Launcher can be started in MacOS 9 in qemu in 256 color mode only, but fails to work telling it doesn't support MacOS 9. That's why I tried to get MacOS 8.6 in qemu which wasn't successful. I remember, Steven Troughtonsmith supposed that qemu wouldn't boot BeOS even from MacOS 8.6 because of a special boot process used in BeOS.
Though it's somewhat out of topic: I've got to know that as of version 2.9 qemu supports Intel HAXM (hardware accelerated manager) for Windows and MacOS, as well as that HAXM has been open-sourced a couple weeks ago: https://lists.nongnu.org/archive/html/qemu-devel/2017-11/msg03287.html. It could be a replacement to KVM on Windows and MacOS hosts. Sorrow, I've been unable to make it work so far. HAXM installs on 10.13 and qemu really supports -accel hax option and reports "HAX is working and emulator runs in fast virt mode" but then "VCPU shutdown request" and it aborts. Couldn't find any guides on using HAXM im MacOS qemu so far.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:40 pm 
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As I recall, I tried to edit the system suitcase for 8.6 much the same way we did for 9.2, to get it to run one Old World machines, but I never got passed the bus errors and unimplemented traps.

However I never tried editing the Mac OS Rom to think the machine was a New World Mac, the editing the system suitcase, the parts that would be specific changes to the early iMac.

I maybe worth a go, if I can isolate how the early iMac's booted, what jumps they made from the New World Rom in ram, to what areas of the suitcase.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 12:44 pm 
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HAXM sounds interesting, I have a KVM.kext that creates /dev/kvm on the macOS, but it never really got passed the proof of concept stage, and all that can be done is to boot a linux kernel in qemu with it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:15 pm 
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I described my efforts on December 2016: to boot MacOS < 9.04 I changed MacOS ROM file to newer one (e.g., 5.2.1), changed the system version to 9.0.4 and used -cpu G3. MacOS 8.6 crashed with bus error (system bomb). In fact, MacOS >=8.6 should boot in New World machines,but in qemu we have, for some reason, use -cpu G3 for 9.0 . Currently qemu cannot boot MacOS 9 in g3beige, only in mac99.Old World firmware is different, it contains MacOS ROM, while New World contains only OpenFirmware while Mac OS ROM resides on boot volume. I had an idea to extract MacOS ROM from Old World firmware and boot it "New World way", but didn't succeed.
As for HAXM, it appears that qemu with HAXM cannot boot from cdrom. I tried HD images and managed to boot ChromiumOS, Kali Linux (Debian-based), ReactOS and Haiku OS. Also Remix OS boots to logo. Windows, OS/2, Mac OS X, BeOS 5, Solaris 10 and 11 crash. That is, qemu with HAXM can do something already on MacOS host.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:29 am 
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darthnvader wrote:
That's High Sierra running in Qemu on a linux host, with KVM, and PCI Passthough of the GTX 1050 and the SSD 960 EVO NVME drive( boot drive ).

No patches to OS X really necessary, I'm running a patched version of Qemu that has emulation for the SMC, tho I do use Clover to boot the OS.

That's on a Ryzen 7 1700, passing the -cpu Penryn command, and a few others.

It's not emulating the CPU, I'm using KVM, it's just telling the guest that the CPU is a Penryn, and the Ryzen 7 supports all the instructions that the Penryn has.

It's nasty fast.


Does this mean we should change the description of QEMU to being able to run Mac OS 10.13?
Here is the description: https://www.emaculation.com/forum/

Congratulations on your success with Mac OS 10.13.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:36 am 
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10.12 was working also, so no doubt that people got 10.13 to work. actually I remember using QEMU to run 10.10 also.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:01 am 
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We are, of course, concerned with running PPC operating systems... ;-)

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:46 pm 
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Obviously he's running 10.13 in an x86 QEMU on QEMU PPC :D


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 10:45 am 
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I will be also a little off-topic,but think it could be interesting.
I've made some efforts to boot/install Linux and BSD in qemu-system-ppc.The results are:
Ubuntu Warty installtion cd boots and installs system on HD, but, after installation, boot hd:2,\yaboot brings to a Linux logo and then black screen.
Ubuntu 12.04 installs, boots via boot hd:2,\yaboot and comes to desktop.Works slowly, sungem device working, but audio while present in Sound preferences makes no sound (usb-audio, hda, ac97 and es1370).
NetBSD: using this guide: https://wiki.netbsd.org/tutorials/how_to_install_netbsd_on_a_power_macintosh_g4___40__grey__41__/ I managed to create an Apple partitioning on a virtual disk and install NetBSD-macppc from 6.1 up to 7.1.But chainloading NetBSD kernel via "boot cd:,\ofwboot.xcf hd:3,/netbsd" was successful only for NetBSD 6.1.When system boots, network may be configured for default ne2k device, not sungem. Then, after installing hfsutils, boot partition may be formatted to HFS filesystem and ofwboot may be copied to it. After reboot system may be started via "boot hd:2,ofwboot.xcf hd:3,/netbsd".
FreeBSD installation media starts but after a while, stalls (I suspect, on DMA commands). Tried version 11.1 and several earlier ones.
OpenBSD stops just after loading kernel.
I hope this info may be useful for ProgrammingKid's qemu guide.
By the way, I haven't yet found any information about successful boots of NetBSD-macppc off hard disk in qemu. Am I the first?
Also, I succeeded in running NetBSD 7.1 and RemixOS (it's multitasking Android, wants 2048 mb of memory) in qemu-haxm on MacOS (this theme, qemu-haxm testing isn't discussed anywhere yet).


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:14 pm 
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Hi I just made a page for testing PowerPC instructions in QEMU using a program called Risu. The page is a step by step set of directions and other information that testers should find interesting. If someone could try it out and let me know what they think I would be greatful. Thanks!

https://wiki.qemu.org/PowerPCTesting


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 8:57 pm 
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A new Qemu build for Windows has landed. It seems to be showing considerable speed improvements ;-)
Possibly due to performance enhancements in the TCG just included in the source code.

MacBench 3.0 results in Mac OS 9.2:

From 2.11 (yesterday) to 2.12 pre (15-12-2017)
Processor: 137 > 195
Floating point: 43 > 51
Disk mix: 78 > 140
Graphics mix: 126 > 160

Find it here: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9028

Enjoy,
Cat_7


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 15, 2017 10:15 pm 
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And then also a new Qemu build for OSX landed. Speed-up included ;-)

MacBench 3.0 results in Mac OS 9.2:

From 2.11 (yesterday) to 2.12 pre (15-12-2017)
Processor: 173 > 211
Floating point: 49 > 58
Disk mix: 106 > 156
Graphics mix: 153 > 171

Find it here: viewtopic.php?f=34&t=8848

Enjoy,
Cat_7


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