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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:25 pm 
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from what I can see, the qemu changes all look fine; it's just the most recent OpenBIOS changes that cause some problems. I'll try running David's 2.8WIP with the master OpenBIOS later today to see what sort of results that gives.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 7:47 pm 
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it appears I'm missing a ppc cross-compiler :\ So I can't do any fine-grained tests there. More than willing to test multiple builds if someone throws the pre-built elf binaries my way though.


There is an effective tutorial on the openbios site. If you run OSX, you can install the fcode utils and use the awos cross compiler linked to: http://www.mediafire.com/download/wy5xg ... pilers.zip

This is my script to build the OpenBIOS binary:
PATH=:/usr/local/ppcelf/ppcelf/bin:/users/hsp/src/fcode-utils-devel/toke:$PATH
export PATH
cd openbios
CROSS_COMPILE=ppc-elf- ./config/scripts/switch-arch ppc
#(remove -Werror from CFLAGS in Makefile.target in top directory)
make

These are the repositories I build from.
https://github.com/openbios/openbios
https://github.com/mcayland/openbios
https://github.com/ozbenh/openbios

Best,
Cat_7


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:07 pm 
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Can someone clarify whether these latest Qemu shortcomings affect all platforms equally or are they Windows-specific? A few days ago, I came to the conclusion that running OS 9.2.2 and/or OS 10.4.11 on Qemu in OS X was entirely functional, except for sound (although I have some lingering doubts about the possibility of 3D "hardware" acceleration, USB usage and printing), but now it seems there are still lots of problems to be ironed out. Clarification would be nice. In addition, can the spreadsheet in https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... view?pli=1 be updated?


Current status, based on release candidate 4 of the official source, I think ;-) , is:
For OSX (the builds provided here):
Qemu/OpenBIOS run/install Mac OS (above 9.0.4 for the G4 processor) and OSX, but without running Leopard or resolution switching and support for the built-in sungem network device
For Windows (from the installers provided by stefan weil (https://qemu.weilnetz.de):
Qemu/Openbios boot and run Mac OS (above 9.0.4 for the G4 processor) and OSX, but sometimes have problems with installing.

All other builds for OSX/Windows (the wip builds of qemu and OpenBIOS) and the busmaster build of OpenBIOS are experimental.

3D video support is up to the developers, but USB support is available for mouse/keyboard, sound device (doesn't work well). It might be tough to configure the command line to adequately pass through other devices, I don't really know. Networked printing "should" work.

Updating the spreadsheet is a different matter. It depends on the starting point you take. Official source builds only? Or the sometimes buggy builds we test here?

Networked printing from Leopard though the tap device (driver would install, but I still had to add my ppd manually):
Image


Best,
Cat_7


Last edited by Cat_7 on Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
add leopard printing image


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 3:36 am 
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celebi23 wrote:
:eek: This is just awesome :D I do hope Mac OS X Server 1.2v3 works at some point. I've always wanted to really use Rhapsody but never had the proper setup (on actual hardware). Which build of qemu are you using & what's are you using in the qemu.command file?


That wouldn't be possible with the actual "mac99" hardware profile. The "mac99", aka Sawtooth or PowerMac3,1 hardware configuration is just too new for anything older than certain MacOS 9.0.4 versions, and the "MacOS ROM" files which come with these older versions don't have the resources and code to support it. You need something a bit older, like the older MacOnLinux "B&W" hardware profile, aka "Yosemite G3" or PowerMac1,1. Unfortunately, for this you need create a new QEMU hardware profile as QEMU doesn't have B&W. And only to support older versions down to MacOS8.6 (BeOS/Rhapsody included ofc).

Actually, QEMU offers a bit older hardware profile, the "g3beige", aka "Gossamer G3" or just PowerMac as DT identifier. With this profile you can go as low as MacOS 7.6.x, including Copland Betas and ofc MacOS9, Rhapsody and OSX officially up to 10.2.8. The problem is... This system is an OldWorld Machine... That means you need a full 4MB copyrighted ROM set from a real Gossamer system. While OpenBIOS exist for this profile at QEMU, Apple doesn't support booting Oldworlds in this way, and as consequence MacOS ROM files don't have any resources, drivers or code to support any OldWorld system. In some sense, OpenBIOS was done for this profile only to allow FOSS *nix OSs to boot from this profile in older QEMU release without the use of Apple's copyrighted ROM. But wasn't designed, and doesn't allow boot MacOS because, as i said, MacOS ROM files don't have support for this (limitation isn't in OpenBIOS, but in MacOS ROM toolbox files).

MacOnLinux source tarball has more documentation about this, specially in the /usr/share folder, including Device Tree dumps and some binary drivers.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:50 am 
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You would indeed need an actual ROM from an Old World Mac to get anything older than 8.5 (and possibly the iMac-specific version of 8.1) running. As of now, though, QEMU doesn't allow you to use your own ROMs from New World or Old World Macs, at least from what I've tested.

Also, I'd probably need to make a version of QEMU myself with the B&W PowerMac G3 support to see 8.6 in action. I'd also have to make more profiles for even older PPC machines (like the Power Mac 8500 or the 9500), for OSes such as Windows NT and OS/2.


Last edited by kataetheweirdo on Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:14 am, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:12 am 
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hyoenmadan wrote:
While OpenBIOS exist for this profile at QEMU, Apple doesn't support booting Oldworlds in this way, and as consequence MacOS ROM files don't have any resources, drivers or code to support any OldWorld system. In some sense, OpenBIOS was done for this profile only to allow FOSS *nix OSs to boot from this profile in older QEMU release without the use of Apple's copyrighted ROM. But wasn't designed, and doesn't allow boot MacOS because, as i said, MacOS ROM files don't have support for this (limitation isn't in OpenBIOS, but in MacOS ROM toolbox files).

MacOnLinux source tarball has more documentation about this, specially in the /usr/share folder, including Device Tree dumps and some binary drivers.


It seems to me that what's needed here is to create a New World wrapper that loads the Old World ROM and provides interfaces to it similar to what the OS would be using to access the toolbox. Theoretically, it should be possible; legally, I'm not sure. Clean room implementation would be really tricky.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:31 am 
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Many thanks for your explanations, Cat_7. By the way, my old Xerox Phaser printer died on me and I purchased a cheap Brother colour laser printer (HL-3150CDW), which lacks a PPD file for versions of OS X previous to Snow Leopard. Is there a way I can use this printer from inside a Tiger virtual machine running on Qemu?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:48 am 
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If it's just a matter of a missing PPD, you can copy the corresponding PPD file for your printer from System/Library/Printers/PPDs/Contents/Resources in your host system to the same location in Tiger.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:12 am 
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mabam wrote:
If it's just a matter of a missing PPD, you can copy the corresponding PPD file for your printer from System/Library/Printers/PPDs/Contents/Resources in your host system to the same location in Tiger.

Hmmm. As far as I know, my current PPD for that printer is Intel-compatible only. How Tiger would understand that binary information on the emulated PPC machine escapes me.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 10:55 am 
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As far as I am aware, printer software may be platform dependent, but not the included PPD file (PostScript Printer Description file).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 11:36 am 
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I forgot to mention the HL-3150CDW is not a PostScript printer, but, please, gentlemen, don't dwell on this particular case. Qemu is the point here.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:40 pm 
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adespoton wrote:
It seems to me that what's needed here is to create a New World wrapper that loads the Old World ROM and provides interfaces to it similar to what the OS would be using to access the toolbox. Theoretically, it should be possible; legally, I'm not sure. Clean room implementation would be really tricky.


That isn't exactly how it works...
As you know, in the NewWorld systems you have 2 diferentiated parts, the actual BootRom OF, flashed in the motherboard of every NewWorld system, which is non-distributable, and the MacOS ROM File, which is basically the Mac toolbox ROM from the older systems in loadable form. In the last OldWorld systems, like the mentioned g3beige, theoretically you have these both parts, as the g3beige is also an OF system... The problem is... Them don't exist as separated components, but them are fused in a single big package, and burned in a set of MaskRom chips, which is ofc not distributable.

This creates a big problem, because even if you have a fully functional oss OF implementation, and the g3beige is an OF system, you don't have access to the key component to boot (and run) these older MacOS versions, which is the MacOS ROM file. Doing a clean implementation of that file to make it work with OpenBIOS isn't a trivial task... Basically you have to re-implement the whole toolbox. Doing an understandable comparative, would be the same thing as WINE and ReactOS are doing for Windows. And even if you could extract the MacOS ROM file from a g3beige dump to use it with OpenBIOS (possible, as them already exist as separated components inside the ROM dump), you still can't distribute it, as it came from the ROM chips of the machine.

As i see, there are 3 alternatives to this.

1.- Ditch completely the "g3beige" profile at QEMU, and create a new "B&W" profile. This will allow us to freely boot with OpenBIOS any MacOS version down to MacOS8.6, BeOS and Rhapsody. "mac99" then can handle without hacks MacOS9.0.4 and all MacOSX versions. Ofc this doesn't allow to use Copland betas, or MacOS 7.6.x/8.x/8.5.

2.- Don't waste efforts doing a new QEMU profile, and just focusing in making "g3beige" load its corresponding and genuine ROM set, while retaining the existing compatibility with OpenBIOS. This would allow QEMU to boot MacOS down to 7.6, Copland betas, Rhapsody and BeOS. But this approach would be limited only to the users entitled to use these dumps, which are the ones who have actually a real G3 beige. The rest would be limited to what actually OpenBIOS offers for "g3beige" profile, which is basically *nix.

3.- Create an OSS implementation of the MacOS ROM file for "g3beige" QEMU profile, which can offer everything the real G3 Beige 4MB romset offers, so you can boot down to MacOS 7.6, Copland Betas, Rhapsody and BeOS, while still being able to distribute it, as happens with existent newworld MacOS ROM files. Basically you want to re-implement G3Beige toolbox as i said before... Isn't necessary mention how crazy that sounds, if even possible.

Personally, 3 to me seems impossible. 1 would be the way, but only 2 offers access to boot all the existent MacOSes, retail and betas, existent for the PPC platform.

kataetheweirdo wrote:
As of now, though, QEMU doesn't allow you to use your own ROMs from New World or Old World Macs, at least from what I've tested.


For NewWorld "mac99" profile you don't need load directly the file, as SheepShaver does (but not MOL as you can see). In fact, the way how OpenBIOS loads NewWorld MacOS ROM file in QEMU is actually the correct and official way to do it. In this case, OpenBIOS plays the role of the Apple's OF BootRom flashed in every NewWorld system motherboard. I suspect that the actual errors when loading older MacOS ROM files for older MacOS versions and Rhapsody come from the fact than "mac99" hardware profile is just too new for them, and probably this also happens in real hardware. So i don't think OpenBIOS is really tied to specific MacOS ROM file versions as you said, bugged, or still need too much work... These ROM files only need an older NW hardware profile, like B&W for example, that's all ("g3beige" doesn't count, is an OW system and existent MacOS ROM files don't have support for it as i said before).

The problem here really is OldWorld and MacOS versions below 8.6 (betas included). You need boot OldWorld ROMsets directly, not because OpenBIOS, but because the dump already includes the part which is played by OpenBIOS in NW systems built-in. Ofc it also has the MacOS ROM file too. Theoretically would be possible to extract the MacOS ROM file from a G3Beige rom dump, and make OpenBIOS of the "g3beige" profile actually load it as we do for "mac99" newworld rom files, but would be a waste of time/resources/effort, as the result still can't be distributed. What you really need is just let QEMU load the full G3Beige ROMset, only for the "g3beige" oldworld profile case (as is only need for this case), and boot directly from it as Mac on Linux does. You don't even need work in OpenBIOS here, as the ROMset has already everything what it needs built in. The problem is that G3 Beige romset can't be freely distributed as i said before, and why QEMU created OpenBIOS for the "g3beige" profile in first place, to be able to boot *nix distros without the need of the mentioned copyrighted ROMset.


Last edited by hyoenmadan on Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:16 pm 
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I'd say that if you have the time and resources, do both 1 and 2, with 1 taking a higher priority to 2. This would be optimal solution (in terms of results) to the problem at hand here. If we don't have the time and resources, I'll gladly take 1 over 2.

On a dark note though, I'm sad to say that Mac OS X DP4 still does not boot in qemu. The startup hangs at "Waiting for root device" with the G3 processor emulated (no matter the machine) and it doesn't even get past the happy mac with the G4 processor emulated (again, not machine-dependent).


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:36 pm 
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sidoh wrote:
I'd say that if you have the time and resources, do both 1 and 2, with 1 taking a higher priority to 2. This would be optimal solution (in terms of results) to the problem at hand here. If we don't have the time and resources, I'll gladly take 1 over 2.


I agree here; I was basically proposing 2, where the idea is to look for the ROM with toolbox and wrap around that if we find it, otherwise fall back to standard OF loader. This of course only works for those of us who have access to a G3beige, which is a limited set of people. That said, the number of people who have access to 7.6-8.1 install CDs is also limited. My idea here was to put in a small amount of work to leverage all the work already done on the g3beige profile.

Creating a new B&W profile is definitely the best solution for booting Mac OS 8.6, OS X DPs, and OS X Server. But it still leaves out support for 7.6.1 through 8.5, which is technically possible.

For that matter, a PPC profile could be made that required a ROM from a *100-series PowerPC and doesn't use OpenFirmware at all; this would allow OS support all the way back to System 7.1.2. It would, of course, require access to a 6100, 7100 or 8100 PowerPC, but those were significantly more common than the Beige G3 back in the day. You can get a bunch on eBay right now for $16 - $100.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:54 pm 
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Pardon me for asking, but wouldn't a Wallstreet/PDQ Powerbook G3 ROM also work with sol. 2 (with a couple of modifications), seeing as it's the only other Mac OS X 10.0+ compatible machine that has an old world ROM? (I know that the Wallstreet has it for sure, not sure about the PDQ.)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 5:55 pm 
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I'm trying to compile qemu in a chroot on OS X, but I keep running into a problem.

I get this error message when trying to install into a different directory:

Quote:
installer -target /Volumes/Overflow/Developer/Xcode7 -pkg /Volumes/Command\ Line\ Developer\ Tools/Command\ Line\ Tools\ \(OS\ X\ 10.11\).pkg


Are my two options going to be:

1) Install Darling in a Linux VM
2) Use bindfs and OSXfuse to make it think the directory is a volume?

With all the Xcode command line tool updates every couple of months, it makes little sense to have package receipts clutter up on the SSD...

I already use a Linux VM (Linux Mint) to compile OpenBIOS


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:25 pm 
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Yet another problem: I managed to install Mac OS 9.0.4 on a hard disk using an install cd for the Power Mac G4 Cube, but when I try to boot up from the disk, qemu crashes. This happens with both the mac99 and the mac99p machines.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:40 pm 
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What's the error message part? What is it in response to?

I have to admit, I've never attempted to install the CLTs (or XCode) into an alternate location since it all got bundled as an App Store app. Too many things broke from my original toolchain every update.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:43 pm 
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sidoh wrote:
Yet another problem: I managed to install Mac OS 9.0.4 on a hard disk using an install cd for the Power Mac G4 Cube, but when I try to boot up from the disk, qemu crashes. This happens with both the mac99 and the mac99p machines.


Which qemu/OpenBIOS builds are you using? We appear to have 4 on the go now, with multiple configurations. The 2.7RC4 qemu with mac99 *should* be able to boot that image. The 2.8 binaries and the later OpenBIOS builds will be hit and miss, but knowing which one you're using will help identify where the bugs have been introduced.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 6:46 pm 
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sidoh wrote:
Pardon me for asking, but wouldn't a Wallstreet/PDQ Powerbook G3 ROM also work with sol. 2 (with a couple of modifications), seeing as it's the only other Mac OS X 10.0+ compatible machine that has an old world ROM? (I know that the Wallstreet has it for sure, not sure about the PDQ.)


I haven't heard of an emulator that's successfully emulated a Powerbook profile to date. I think we'd probably have PMU issues if we went that route, but someone with a more in-depth knowledge of what prevented past hardware emulations of Powerbooks would probably have a better answer. Possibly, being another hybrid, the Wallstreet moved past the issues that were preventing hardware emulation on pre-G3 PPC Powerbooks.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 7:25 pm 
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adespoton wrote:
sidoh wrote:
Yet another problem: I managed to install Mac OS 9.0.4 on a hard disk using an install cd for the Power Mac G4 Cube, but when I try to boot up from the disk, qemu crashes. This happens with both the mac99 and the mac99p machines.


Which qemu/OpenBIOS builds are you using? We appear to have 4 on the go now, with multiple configurations. The 2.7RC4 qemu with mac99 *should* be able to boot that image. The 2.8 binaries and the later OpenBIOS builds will be hit and miss, but knowing which one you're using will help identify where the bugs have been introduced.


I'm using the 2.8 build for Windows provided on this forum on a Windows Server 2016 Technical Preview 5 host. I'm used both the OpenBIOS build included with that download and this one provided earlier in the thread:

https://www.ilande.co.uk/tmp/openbios/openbios-ppc-rtas

Both exhibit the same problems.

UPDATE: I have also been testing a couple of Mac OS X 10.1 betas on the same config:

5D15 and 5F7 install normally.
5F24 gets stuck on 'still waiting for root device', just like Mac OS X DP4. When booting without verbose mode enabled, I get an icon of a broken folder. Any help on this? AFAIK, the iso itself is not corrupt.


Last edited by sidoh on Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 8:07 pm 
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adespoton wrote:
What's the error message part? What is it in response to?


The error was:

Code:
installer: Error trying to locate volume at /Volumes/Overflow/Developer/Xcode7


Anyone know if nullfs exists for OS X? It seems to do exactly what I want...


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:24 pm 
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sidoh wrote:
Pardon me for asking, but wouldn't a Wallstreet/PDQ Powerbook G3 ROM also work with sol. 2 (with a couple of modifications), seeing as it's the only other Mac OS X 10.0+ compatible machine that has an old world ROM? (I know that the Wallstreet has it for sure, not sure about the PDQ.)


Not necessary. Already implemented "g3beige" is an OW machine with OSX booting capability. In effect, that's why it was choosen at time, when mac99 didn't exist/was extremely incomplete. Though at that time was to implement OpenBIOS to load directly OSX and *nix kernels, so you don't need the copyrighted ROM, but still having a familiar model that OSX and these old *nix distros could recognize via Device Tree ("g3beige" has a device tree recognizable by OSX/*nix, but older 9xxx/8xxx don't... i dunno 7xxx, i guess this one doesn't have OF, but an authentic full Toolbox ROM like Quadras and such). This is also what i mean its primary purpose in QEMU wasn't run MacOS Classic (until now ;-)).

Seeing the answers, probably the first thing we could do is enable QEMU to load g3beige ROMset via [-bios] QEMU parameter, so we can see how QEMU emulation behaves with it, and check if we can boot older MacOSs with the hardware emulation g3beige already offers. It doesn't need any changes in OpenBIOS, as the ROMset has already all the OF support it needs builtin, and is simpler than creating a "b&w" profile from scratch (although PearPC/MoL have more or less complete implementations of it, "porting" it isn't a trivial task at all). MOL source shows already how load g3beige OW ROMsets and boot from them unmodified (Sheepshaver doesn't count, its way involves patching stuff, thing we don't want to do).

PD: A listing with the device trees of all the PPC OF Macs up to PowerBook/IBook G4. So you can see how different these hardware profiles really are... No wonder why Rhapsody/OS8.6 refuse to load in the "sawtooth" Mac G4.

http://web.archive.org/web/20081120133742/http://penguinppc.org/historical/dev-trees-html/

Seems like 7xxx is also a OF Mac... Unfortunately its Device Tree isn't compatible with OSX at all.


Last edited by hyoenmadan on Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:47 pm 
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That sounds like what I recall/what I was thinking. Once we see how g3beige performs, we can figure out what the next steps are for older devices that can use OF but don't have the new world device tree. More of the work is already done, and the work to be done is already understood. And it results in fairly decent emulation of a larger range of systems (not just 8.6 and OS X Server).

[edit] the 7100 series uses the same basic hardware setup and 601 chip as the 8100 and 9100 series PowerPCs. So it would have the same issues. The three models make up the first release of PowerPC Macs in 1994.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 2:19 pm 
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Hi guys.

It's amazing to see how far this has come! But although I managed to get 9.2.2 up and running with no fuss, I can't get OS X to install. Am I missing a step somewhere? I'm mainly trying Jaguar and Panther.

I boot into the installer and format the drive with Disk Utility. Then after the installer completes and reboots it will automatically try to boot the cd again. If I cancel this and remove the cd image from the command line and change "d" to "c" to boot from hard disc, it tries to boot from the hd but then gives up with "no valid state has been set by load or init-program". If I shut down QEMU while the installer is counting down to reboot and make the same changes to the command line I still get the same error on boot.

I've tried a few of Cat_7's prebuilt OS X versions, with different images (most from my original media), with and without setting cpu to G3 and it ends like this every time. What am I doing wrong?

As for some of the other systems mentioned earlier, I have a PM7500 with a 604 cpu card which can run Rhapsody, BeOS and Copland D11E4. I don't think I've ever tried the OS X Server 1.x or OS X Developer builds on it as I use a B&W G3 for those. So something like that (or a x500 or x600) would be a good target machine to get those running.

The older Coplands require an original x100 series Power Mac. I have a 6100 for those, but trying to run those emulated will be tough. D7E1 requires a debugging Mac connected. I think D9 will run without a debugger, but it's been a while so I might be wrong there.


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