Access real hard disks - or their images

About BasiliskII, a 68k Mac emulator for Windows, MacOSX, and Linux that can run System 7.x through MacOS 8.1.

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salaxi54
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Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Hi there fellas, new user here, but long-time lurker. Have been using Mac emulators for decades, mostly under Amiga OS (Shapeshifter, Fusion, A-Max) quite happily i may add. Anyway, long story short, i happen to have various real Macs around too. Wanted to utilize a copy of a real (SCSI) disk i got from my LC475, which carries MacOS 8.1
I managed to take a raw image using HDD Raw Copy on windows 8.1 (ironic, ain't it? ) which has an extension of .imgc
So, my question is: can i use this image on Basilisk II as is, or rename (tried it as a hardfile extension unsuccessfully) some way? If not, can i use the physical disk on Basilisk II directly without doing it any harm? My pc has Mac Drive installed, and i can see the contents of the SCSI disk directly under Windows, the disk being an HFS+ architecture.
I even tried creating a hard file and copying the contents to it, then booting from a fresh 8.1 OS image. However, all the contents of Desktop Folder form the SCSI disk appear as icons on the Mac desktop...
I would appreciate any suggestions. One more question: does anyone know if i can dump the raw image of the SCSI disk on a bigger-capacity disk without hickups?
It is a 2.1GB drive, and i was wondering if for example, i dump it to say, an 20GB drive will be safe.

Thanks in advance!
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Cat_7
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Cat_7 »

Hi,

You connected your scsi drive to a scsi controller in your windows machine to make the copy? Then perhaps that a look at Basilisk 142 which can access real scsi disks. Or CockatriceIII, which can access scsi disk images.

If you manage to make a full disk copy (not only the 8.1 partition) that image should also be mountable in Basilisk.
I take it that you see only document icons and not the normal program icons in Basilisk? That often means the copy did not include the resource forks of the files. Sometimes rebuilding the desktop can also help.
Take great care not to move your files to and from the windows disk, as that will surely strip the forks.

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salaxi54
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Thanks for the reply Cat_7, the SCSI disk was imaged on XP SP3 with an Adaptec controller. It only has one partition, carrying the 8.1 OS, and is of 2,1 GB capacity.
Yes, using Mac Drive in Windows, i copied everything to a new Basilisk image, which apparently couldn't boot, but was seen as contents (useless) under another image with 8.1 bootable. Anyway, how does one assign a disk to CockatriceIII, as it has no GUI? I couldn't figure that out.
To answer one of my own questions, i managed to replicate the image from the SCSI disk to an IDE one, of a larger capacity. The IDE drive is of 30GB, and after the dump it shows as 2,1GB, HFS+ formatted under Windows (MacDrive). Which means, HDD raw copy replicates the original drive exactly as it is, no matter how larger the target drive is. As about the image, like i said, it is of .imgc extension, one that Basilisk II or CockatriceIII for that matter does not see.
Question is, how does one make a .imgc image usefull under those emulators? Also, now that i have the disk copied to an IDE one, can i mount it on BasiliskII?
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Cat_7
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Cat_7 »

Hi,

The extension of the disk image file is irrelevant to Basilisk or Cockatrice. You just point to in the GUI (basilisk) or add it to the preferences manually (Cockatrice).
See here for Cockatrice help:
https://sourceforge.net/p/cockatrice/gi ... ster/tree/

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salaxi54
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Thanks once again Cat_7, but i'm still troubled.. Ok, i understand the philosophy of the CockatriceIII prefs. I managed to use my LC 475 ROM, and i get the initial screen, then a request for a boot volume. I could even change the resolution to a smaller one, as the default was rather big for my display.
Anyway, the detail of the image file, is in the extension i believe. You see, as i googled around, i found that the .imgc file type, is of a compressed nature. Thus, the image needs a way to be expanded. Probably that's why it won't work as is in any emulator. I was wondering now, is there a way of making a new (usable) image of the actual disk, under something like OS X? I can still use the original drive under both the LC and a PowerMac 7100 or an 7300 which are happy to boot it.
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adespoton
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by adespoton »

.imgc seems to be a compressed image format created by a Windows tool called HDD Raw Copy Tool. I'm not sure what compression format it uses, but it appears to compress the entire image, not just the partition data, as it doesn't care about partition formats etc, but just does a raw copy of the entire disk from end to end.

You could try using something like 7-zip to try uncompressing the .imgc file and see if you end up with a raw image.

IIRC, SheepShaver ignores everything but the HFS partition on a disk image; if you still have difficulties once you've figured out how to decompress the file, use a hex editor to trim off everything before and after the HFS partition in the image file.
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

That's exactly the case i described. But 7-zip refuzes to decompress it, saying it's a file it doesn't open. And the image is a single HFS+ partition.
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

This apparently is a compressed image format in itself, not an image file that is compressed/archived. BasiliskII cannot read compressed or encoded image formats. Isn't there a way to mount the compressed image somewhere and create a non-compressed (.iso) image from the mounted disk?
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by adespoton »

Ronald P. Regensburg wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:05 pm This apparently is a compressed image format in itself, not an image file that is compressed/archived. BasiliskII cannot read compressed or encoded image formats. Isn't there a way to mount the compressed image somewhere and create a non-compressed (.iso) image from the mounted disk?
The discussion threads I've seen say to use the original software to write it out to a mounted disk image of the appropriate size.
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Cat_7
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Cat_7 »

I see your tool uses a proprietary compression algorithm?
But it can also create uncompressed disk images using dd.
In addition, HDD Raw Copy can create an exact raw (dd) or compressed image of the entire media (including service data such as MBR, Boot records, etc). Again, all filesystems (even hidden) are supported.
Can you not set the compressed file as source and and an uncompressed file as destination? It seems you can, I just tried it with the portable version in Windows 10 host.

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salaxi54
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Thank you all for your suggestions! It appears an earlier version of HDD Raw copy didn't have the selection for uncompressed image saving... I managed to dump the image as an .img file. This, is directly useful in Basilisk II. I can now run the 8.1 under emulation decently. Now, for some other details:
The image can only be written to a physical disk as an exact size as the original. From the 2,1GB SCSI drive, to the 30GB IDE drive, no change can be made, and the IDE drive can be used on the LC as a 2,1 GB one. I tried using the GParted live CD, which indeed supports HFS and HFS+ drives, hopeing to resize the volume. But in contrary to instructions i read, this was not feasible. What i could do, is create a second partition to the same drive, formated in HFS+, and supposedly the bootable partition was intact.
However, the drive became useless. Tried many options under GParted, but nothing would help.
Back to the usable disk image, i tried some other things under OS X (Snow Leopard), using the Disk Utility. I took the image to the OS X, and created a .dmg file of it.
Then, i tried to format the 30GB IDE drive, and chose the Restore function of Disk Utility. So i formated the IDE with 2 partition selection, one of 3,3 GB (the minimum possible), and one with 27 GB. I restored the image to the first partition, which was supposedly bootable now. But still no go under a real 68k or PPC Mac..
I know this has nothing to do with emulation, but i would appreciate any idea on how to make a larger disk usable with the initial image. Maybe even some method of duplicating the contents of a (bootable) disk to a larger one?
Thanks!
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

It is not possible to enlarge an existing HFS/HFS+ disk image, but it is possible to create a larger empty image file, initialize and mount it in BasiliskII, and simply copy all files and folders over from the smaller disk to the larger disk.

Do not forget to also copy important files that may be on the desktop to the new disk.

When the copy is complete, check whether the System Folder on the new disk shows its System Folder icon. If it only shows a generic folder icon, open the folder so the Finder can "see" the "System" and "Finder" files inside. That way the folder will obtain its icon. (This is called "blessing" the System Folder.)

You should then be able to boot BasiliskII from that larger disk image and write it to the hard disk the way you did with the smaller disk.
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Ronald, thanks for the advice, but i just can't create a image file larger than 2GB on Basilisk II. I tried, entering 4GB size, the file was created, but when i was told to initialize the volume in MacOS, i have only a ProDOS something selection. If i choose that, i get an error of the drive being corrupted. If i create a 2GB image, there's no problem and i can choose Mac OS formats. So, how does one create a hard file larger than 2 GB on a Windows Basilisk II environment? My Windows version is 8.1 64bit, so the file size shouldn't be a problem.
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Not sure I understood this correctly, but don't you run MacOS 8.1 in BasiliskII?
HFS is limited to 2GB, but in 8.1 you can initialize using HFS+ format, which can use larger than 2GB disks.
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Yes, i am running MacOS 8.1 on Basilisk II, but creating a hard file, is done through the GUI on Windows, on pre-boot. Is there another way, that i can create one inside the Mac environment?
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Here's a couple of screenshots of the 4GB file scenario:
Image

Image
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Not sure what is different. In BasiliskII GUI for Mac I can create a disk image any size. And while trying, I just found that MacOS 8.1 in BasiliskII presented me for a blank 4MB image the choice between DOS, Mac OS Standard (HFS) and Mac OS Extended (HFS+). Formatting as HFS actually also produced a 4MB HFS formatted volume.

Now, why is a 4MB image created in the GUI for Windows not recognised in MacOS 8.1 as a useable disk?

I posted a zipped unformatted 4MB .img image file here: https://emaculation.com/basilisk/Unformatted4MB.zip

Does this one work in your BasiliskII?
salaxi54
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Thanks for that Ronald! Now, this answers my thought: something is different in the Mac vs the Windows version of Basilisk II.
Here's proof:

Image

I think i should utilize the Mac version, and would appreciate knowing what's better: a (real) PPC Mac, or a (real) Intel one?
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Not sure the Windows version of BasiliskII is very different from the macOS version. The builds you can download here are built from the same source. Note that the difference we just found is about the GUI, which is not BasiliskII itself. I suppose that the GUI in Windows does not produce a really blank file. It may already have the format of some kind of hard image.

I think that in Windows you can create a blank file of certain size. Try that, append an .img extension, and add the file to the volumes list in the GUI.

PPC Macs are obsolete and the current BasiliskII builds for Mac will not run on it.

The latest BasiliskII builds for Mac are recommended for macOS 10.13 (High Sierra) through macOS 11 (Big Sur), but will probably run in OSX 10.9 (Mavericks) and later. These OS versions require an Intel Mac.

But Intel Macs are now phased out. I do not expect new Intel Macs to be introduced from now. The successor is Apple Silicon. The latest new models are built around the Apple Silicon M1. Most software that runs on Intel will run on Apple Silicon with the help of Rosetta2. Apple plans to complete the transition in two years. After that Rosetta2 will probably not be available anymore on new macOS versions.

So, think before you decide to go Mac.

Moving files around is easier on a Mac because macOS will leave classic Mac files intact.
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

No can do! I persisted on the Windows front, and had no results. I tried using the .img extension while creating image files, but things only got weirder..
Choosing various sizes, from 4GB to 6GB, i got images made with either 0MB size, or up to 490MB. So it appears this setup does not like playing around with sizes..
Thus, it seems i will need to run the emulator on a Mac, and luckilly i got various Macs around. I shall return after experimenting under OS X. Anyone got experience under some Linux flavor by the way?
Yes, i know Apple is changing architecture (again), but i won't follow any time soon.
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Did you try creating a file from the command line using the fsutil command?
See: https://www.windows-commandline.com/cre ... mand-line/
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by adespoton »

salaxi54 wrote: Thu Mar 11, 2021 3:02 pm No can do! I persisted on the Windows front, and had no results. I tried using the .img extension while creating image files, but things only got weirder..
Choosing various sizes, from 4GB to 6GB, i got images made with either 0MB size, or up to 490MB. So it appears this setup does not like playing around with sizes..
Thus, it seems i will need to run the emulator on a Mac, and luckilly i got various Macs around. I shall return after experimenting under OS X. Anyone got experience under some Linux flavor by the way?
Yes, i know Apple is changing architecture (again), but i won't follow any time soon.
You should just be able to create any file of 4GB in size (or use an existing file) and select it as your disk image. BII should then prompt you to initialize it. Is it possible the host OS doesn't give BII the appropriate permissions to write to the file?

I was using 4GB images in BII on Windows 15 years ago, so unless something has changed, the issue isn't with BII, but something the GUI is doing.
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Cat_7 »

The Windows GUI will indeed not create disk images bigger than 2Gb.

I just started from a Mac OS 8.1 iso after I created a 4Gb drive with qemu-img. The installer refused to format the disk to mac os extended and I ended up with a 39Mb disk. So it seems the installer is smart enough to know it should not create a disk the computer will not be able to start from ;-)

I then created a 200 Mb disk with the GUI and that was recognised correctly at boot from CD. Mac OS asked to initialise it and I chose extended format. Mac OS then also asked to initialise the second disk (the 4Gb one) for which I could then also choose extended format. I then installed on the 4Gb disk, but that wouldn't boot on the next start....

For the next round I formatted the 200 Mb disk as extended format and tried to install onto it. The installer immediately told me that disk would not boot in a 68k mac.

A final try with the 200Mb disk formatted standard allowed Mac OS 8.1 to boot normally and showed the 4Gb extended disk on the desktop

Bottom line: the system boot disk needs to be standard format and less than 2Gb. Any additional disks can be bigger but need to have extended format if they are going to have partitions bigger than 2Gb.

(all tests with latest BasiliskII for Windows)

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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Ah, indeed.

Also in BasiliskII for macOS (and apparently on real 68k Macs) with MacOS 8.1 one can use larger than 2GB disks, but the MacOS 8.1 boot disk cannot be larger than 2GB.

I did not know this because I never tried using a larger than 2GB disk for the System disk. In fact, I never used a larger than 1GB disk as boot disk in BasiliskII. I never needed a larger disk.

So, what I wrote earlier in this thread about how to copy everything from the smaller disk to a larger disk will not result in a bootable disk!
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Re: Access real hard disks - or their images

Post by salaxi54 »

Not sure what to take for granted. Check these sources:
https://lowendmac.com/2014/mac-os-8-and ... nvenience/
"Large Volume Support: Working hand in hand with HFS+ is large volume support that actually works. System 7.5.3 and up reportedly support partition sizes up to 2 terabytes. In practice, this capability is almost never realized; virtually all System 7.5 users are limited to 4 GB partitions. Mac OS 8 completely removes this limitation, allowing all supported Macs (Quadras and PowerMacs) to use the largest volumes."

https://avid.secure.force.com/pkb/artic ... g/en250749
"The maximum volume size under system 6 and system 7 is 2 Gigabytes. System 7.5 increased that limit to 4GB and System 7.5.2 and later increases that limit to 2 terabytes on some computers, including -any system that shipped with system 7.5.2 or newer. -any Macintosh system with PCI slots The maximum number of volumes is limited only by the amount of available system memory."
"Mac OS Extended Format (HFS+) STATS Maximum volume size is 2 terabytes Maximum file size is 2 gigabytes maximum data fork size is 2 gigabytes maximum resource fork size is 16 megabytes maximum number of files = more than 2 billion maximum number of files in a folder is 32,767."
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