Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

About BasiliskII, a 68k Mac emulator for Windows, MacOSX, and Linux that can run System 7.x through MacOS 8.1.

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Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Old-School-BBSer »

Hello again to Ronald, Cat_7, et al,

First, thank you for your hard work, dedication and passion for all things related to SheepShaver and Basilisk, which helps us old geezers to enjoy a blast into the past with old and outdated computer technologies.

As I have been discussing in another message thread, just a few days ago I took the plunge, and for the first time, I have successfully set up Basilisk II on my iMac running Yosemite 10.10.2.

Not only that, but over the past few days, I have also resurrected my old Hermes II BBS, as well as my old Hotline server. [No porn or warez. I never got into that. Don't worry!] :)

Anyway, I was able to update the software as far as Mac OS 7.6.1, before I ran into problems.

As is mentioned on another page here, one very frustrating issue I repeatedly encountered with Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1 images and disks, is that Basilisk didn't recognize them, and/or wanted to initialize them.

Well, thanks to the instructions on the "Setting up SheepShaver for Mac OS X" page, just a short while ago this evening, I discovered how to use Disk Utility to convert my installation CD to the proper disk image with the .cdr extension, so that Basilisk will recognize it.

In fact, I also discovered that Basilisk will recognize Toast images as well when they are added to the volumes list.

I was so hopeful that with the proper image format, this would resolve the problems I've been having, and that I would finally be able to update to Mac OS 8.1 in my Basilisk installation.

While Basilisk does recognize the .cdr image, and automatically mounts it when I reboot Basilisk, regardless of whether I try to install 8.0 or 8.1 on top of 7.6.1, when I launch the installer, it gives me the following message:

"This program cannot run on your computer. See the documentation for more information."

I have read, and been told, a number of times, that Basilisk supports up to Mac OS 8.1, and not beyond that, because it is a 68k environment. At least I assume that it why 8.1 is the limit.

Anyway, if you have any ideas regarding why I keep getting this message -- and any possible workarounds -- I'd really appreciate hearing from you. I will stick with 7.6.1 if I must, but I would really like to take advantage of any system improvements in 8.0 and 8.1.

BTW, as far as I know and can recall, Mac OS 8.0 was the very next update following 7.6.1, and there were no upgrades in between, correct? That being the case, why does the OS insist that I cannot run the 8.0 and 8.1 installers in my virtual machine?

Thanks my friends.
Bill Kochman
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

For installation of 8.0.or 8.1, you should best start up from the install CD (or from the CD image). Are you sure your 8.0/8.1 CDs are generic retail CDs and not intended for PPC Macs only?
Last edited by Ronald P. Regensburg on Tue Mar 03, 2015 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Old-School-BBSer »

Ronald P. Regensburg wrote:For installation of 8.0.or 8.1, you should best start up from the install CD (or from the CD image). Are you sure your 8.0/8.1 CDs are generic retail CDs and not intended for PPC Macs only?
Hello Ronald. As I said in my previous message, when I try to install from the actual CD, Mac OS 7.6.1 -- or Basilisk, I don't know which -- doesn't recognize the CD and wants to initialize it.

When I converted certain CD's to disk images, the same thing happened. It didn't recognize them.

It was only when I used the method you described on the other page, and used Disk Utility to create the proper DVD/CD master image, that Basilisk recognized the disk.

However, then I ran into the problem with it saying that I cannot use the installer on this machine.

So regarding your last question, I really don't know what I have here.

For the record, I had actual floppy disks, CD's or DVD installer disks for Mac OS 6.0 all the way up to Lion, I think, but a number of years ago, I threw away all of the older classic installer disks, because I no longer had any Classic or PPC machines.

So, I found the Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1 disk images online after scouring the Internet over the past few days. It wasn't easy.

It sounds like you are saying that there are 68k installer disks, and PPC installer disks for Mac OS 8.0. and 8.1. So maybe you are right and I don't have generic disks or images.

So if you could point me in the right direction. :)

I honestly don't know why Apple stopped making classic installer disks and images freely available online after 7.5.5. They are so old now, and Apple certainly isn't going to make any money from OS 8 and OS 9.

Also, considering how much money we have all already invested in Apple computers and other products over the past several decades, it would be good PR for them to at least publicly release Mac OS 8, if not Mac OS 9 as well.

Just my thoughts, for what it's worth. :mrgreen:
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

You can find what you need at the macintosh garden. Look for the Mac OS Install CD library.
Universal install cds for 8.1 and for 9.0.4 are there.

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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by adespoton »

Old-School-BBSer wrote:
Ronald P. Regensburg wrote:For installation of 8.0.or 8.1, you should best start up from the install CD (or from the CD image). Are you sure your 8.0/8.1 CDs are generic retail CDs and not intended for PPC Macs only?
Hello Ronald. As I said in my previous message, when I try to install from the actual CD, Mac OS 7.6.1 -- or Basilisk, I don't know which -- doesn't recognize the CD and wants to initialize it.
That brings back memories... I had the same issue on my actual hardware when doing the 7.6.1 to 8.0 upgrade. You really do have to boot from the CD; running from a booted 7.6.1 won't work.
Old-School-BBSer wrote: When I converted certain CD's to disk images, the same thing happened. It didn't recognize them.

It was only when I used the method you described on the other page, and used Disk Utility to create the proper DVD/CD master image, that Basilisk recognized the disk.

However, then I ran into the problem with it saying that I cannot use the installer on this machine.

So regarding your last question, I really don't know what I have here.

For the record, I had actual floppy disks, CD's or DVD installer disks for Mac OS 6.0 all the way up to Lion, I think, but a number of years ago, I threw away all of the older classic installer disks, because I no longer had any Classic or PPC machines.

So, I found the Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1 disk images online after scouring the Internet over the past few days. It wasn't easy.

It sounds like you are saying that there are 68k installer disks, and PPC installer disks for Mac OS 8.0. and 8.1. So maybe you are right and I don't have generic disks or images.

So if you could point me in the right direction. :)
What I used instead of my own CDs was a copy of the Apple Software Restore (ASR) CDs -- there's a Legacy one for 68k stuff, a PPC one and a G3/G4 one. Legacy has all the images on it that will run in BII; the PPC one has all the images that will run (well) in SheepShaver. These aren't completely legal to share, but I figure they're a properly formatted equivalent of the stuff I actually own, and don't require trial and error to force things into the right format.
Old-School-BBSer wrote:I honestly don't know why Apple stopped making classic installer disks and images freely available online after 7.5.5. They are so old now, and Apple certainly isn't going to make any money from OS 8 and OS 9.

Also, considering how much money we have all already invested in Apple computers and other products over the past several decades, it would be good PR for them to at least publicly release Mac OS 8, if not Mac OS 9 as well.

Just my thoughts, for what it's worth. :mrgreen:
This basically boils down to one thing: copyright. Apple was able to make available all versions of the OS from 0.89 through 7.0 with the patches because they own the copyright on all technologies included. Same goes for 7.5.x. However, they've licensed some tech that they use in 7.1.x and 7.6.x/8.x/9.x, so they can't release those operating systems without renegotiating with the original rightsholders. Since some of those groups don't even exist anymore, and others (like DataViz) have had their IP handed from company to company and some bits going here, some there... it would be a very expensive endeavor for Apple to sort it all out to the point where they could distribute for free. So they do the alternative and just ignore the fact that others are making their software available for download. If a rightsholder actually complained, they'd have to file DMCA notices on everyone that's doing it though.
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Old-School-BBSer »

Hello again Cat_7,

Wow! Thanks for turning me on to the Mac OS Install CD library! I was scrambling all over the Internet trying to find what I needed.

I became familiar with the "Macintosh Garden" website a few days ago, but I was not aware of the fact that they had such an extensive collection of old Mac OS system software.

Once I saw what they had, I was so hopeful that I would finally be able to install Mac OS 8.1 in my Basilisk II setup.

Sadly, my hopes were once again crushed.

I downloaded both the Mac OS 8 and 8.1 toast images from "Macintosh Garden". I had no problem getting them to mount on my OS 7.6.1 desktop by adding them to the volumes list in Basilisk's setup pane.

However, once again, when I clicked on the OS 8 installer, it gave me the same message as before, stating that the program could not be run on my machine. I was confounded, because on the "Macintosh Garden" website, it specifically states that both Toast images are universal installations, so they should work, right?

Well, at that point, I got the bright idea to create a brand new volume 2GB in size. I don't know how or why it worked, but by doing that, it finally allowed me to install OS 8 on the second volume.

I was so happy, and thought that I had finally nailed it. But then I rebooted Basilisk and was confronted with this message:

"This startup disk will not work on this Macintosh model. Use the latest installer to update this disk for this model."

So here I sit frustrated again.

I don't fully understand all of this stuff, but my impression is that the model of computer that is recognized is determined by the ROM file that one uses, correct?

I am using the ROM file that was recommended for Basilisk, on this very website; that is, the "PERFORMA.ROM".

So I don't know what to do now. After finally being able to install Mac OS 8.1, I am back to square one, it seems. :roll:
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Old-School-BBSer »

Folks, what oh what am I doing wrong? :(

I have been battling on my iMac -- running Yosemite 10.10.2 -- to update my Basilisk II setup from Mac OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1 for three days now.

Nothing seems to work.

In my latest attempt, as per a suggestion, I downloaded the "Apple Legacy Recovery" CD -- in two parts -- from the "Macintosh Garden" website. The uncompressed image file is called "Apple Legacy Recovery.ati".

Using Toast Titanium 11.2, I burned the ".ati" image to a 700 MB CD.

Afterwards, as per the instructions on this website, I completely shut down my Basilisk installation, and then inserted the newly-created CD in my iMac. It mounted just fine on the Yosemite desktop.

After that, I launched the BasiliskIIGUI app, hit the "Start" button, provided my admin password, and then quickly held down the "c" key before hitting the "Okay" button.

As has occurred with other disks and images I have tried, Basilisk or Mac OS 7.6.1 -- I don't know which -- complained with the following message:

----------

"This disk is unreadable by this Macintosh. Do you want to initialize the disk?"

----------

I have seen the above message so many times over the past few days that I am really starting to get sick of it. :(

As with a few other installer disks that I have tried using in recent days, the only way that I can get Basilisk to recognize the "Apple Legacy Recovery" CD, is by adding the CD image -- the ".ati" file -- to the volumes tab in Basilisk's setup pane.

When I do that, the CD image or DMG image -- depending on which I am using -- will appear on the Mac OS 7.6.1 desktop in Basilisk. Sometimes they will also automatically mount and the installation folder window will open.

But even that is false hope, because as I have explained before, more often than not, when I click on the OS installer app on the disk or in the image, I am greeted with this message:

"Please run the application, "Mac OS Install", in order to install Mac OS 8 on this machine."

The thing is, there is NO app called "Mac OS Install" in the folder, or in any of the folders on the CD. There is only one called "Installer", or something similar, depending on the OS to be installed, and I can't rename it, although I don't think I am supposed to do that anyway.

In the case of the Mac OS 8.1 installer, when I click on it, I get this message:

----------

"This program cannot run on your computer. See the documentation for more information."

----------

I have also seen that message many times over the past few days as well.

So folks, I am at wits end here regarding what to do. It seems that I am stuck at Mac OS 7.6.1.

In fact, I got so desperate that I even just tried using the other ROM file that is supposed to be for SheepShaver. Well, Basilisk didn't like it and complained.

I don't know if this has any bearing on what is happening here, but when I use the 68k version of the Apple System Profiler, the information it provides is the following:

Machine: Macintosh IIci
Machine ID: 11
Finder: v7.5.6
System: v7.6.1 US
Processor: 68040 at 40 MHz
Active Enabler: not applicable
OpenDoc: None
Memory Installed: 256 MB
Virtual Memory: is off
Total Memory: 256 MB
Disk Cache: is on, 96K
Startup Device: None Selected
Serial Number: not applicable
Software Bundle: not applicable

So my final question is this:

Is there anything in that data which suggests that I can't run Mac OS 8.0 or 8.1 with my current Basilisk setup?
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Old-School-BBSer »

Well, I just learned something new, although it still hasn't resolved my issue with installing Mac OS 8.0 and 8.1.

Adespoton made me realize that by reordering the volumes in Basilisk's setup pane, I can force one of them to load before any others.

So, I just put the Apple Legacy Recovery CD image -- the .ati file -- at the top of the volumes lilst, and sure enough, Basilisk booted in that.

However, the strangeness continues with the same error messages that I have mentioned in previous messages.

I don't know what to make of the following:

When I boot Basilisk using the Legacy Recovery CD image, I can easily reinstall 7.6.1 from the image. However, the minute that I try to install 8.0 or 8.1 from the same CD image, what happens is that I will get the installation welcome screen, followed by the software agreement screen, and then the install button screen.

Everything looks good until I hit the install button. That is when I get one of the three error messages that I have mentioned in my previous posts.

So for some reason, Basilisk or the installed OS is preventing me from installing OS 8 and 8.1.

I have run out of ideas and options.
Bill Kochman
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

1. Which OSX version runs on the host machine? OSX 10.8 and later will prevent reading physical CDs in BasiliskII or SheepShaver. You will need to use an image created from the CD. The image should not be in a write-only or compressed format. If created with Disk Utility, best choose DVD/CD Master (.cdr) for the format.

2. The install CD-ROM needs to a general retail CD-ROM, not one intended for use with a special Mac model. If the text on the label mentions a Mac model, you will not be able to use that CD (or image created from that CD).

3. To install 8.0 or 8.1, you need to boot from that install CD (or CD image). The installer will not run in an earlier MacOS version.

4. BasiliskII will boot from the first bootable image from the top in the volumes list as shown in BasiliskIIGUI.

5. To be able to run the installer, the installer image file needs to be locked in the OSX Finder. See Info panel in the Finder for that file.
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

It was the Model ID setting that kept the OP from booting Mac OS 8 ;-)

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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Ah, yes, I did not think of that possibility. I myself use the Model ID setting "Quadra 900 (MacOS 8.x), with MacOS 7.5.3 through 8.1. The addition "(MacOS 8.x)" is a little confusing there. You need it for 8.0, but it will work with 7.5.x and later.
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Re: Unable to Update From OS 7.6.1 to 8.0 or 8.1

Post by Old-School-BBSer »

Hello Guys,

I bet you've been wondering what happened to me, and to my Hermes II BBS, and to my Armageddon Hotline server, since yesterday. I know! I just totally disappeared from the scene until about an hour ago! :)

Let's just say that I was experiencing a technological nightmare! :P

In a word, after Cat_7 and I chatted on both my BBS and my Hotline server for a few hours yesterday, I began setting up SheepShaver. As Cat_7 already mentioned above, with his help, I was finally able to get Mac OS 8.1 installed in my Basilisk setup. Yay! :D

Thanks so much for giving me your time yesterday, Cat_7. I really appreciate it. It was such a relief to finally get Mac OS 8.1 installed, after all of the frustration that I endured.

And, yes! To think that it was just one little wrong prefs setting that was giving me such a headache for three days! But I am no technophile, so . . . I can also blame it on my age, can't I? :)

But as to my disappearance, the bottom line is that I majorly screwed up while trying to get Internet connectivity working in my SheepShaver setup. Sound familiar? It was one of the same problems that I had been having with Basilisk as well.

Anyway, Cat_7 and I had been discussing several variations on the script that is used to launch SheepShaver, and to establish an ethernet bridge via a tap device. So I was trying different things with the script, and with SheepShaver, when I broke Internet connectivity for Basilisk as well.

I mean after all of the work I had done, and the frustration which I had endured in order to get Mac OS 8 installed, and to connect Basilisk to the Internet, I turned around and messed it up by my own hand! My gosh! :)

So that is why both my Hermes II BBS and Armageddon Hotline server were offline for about twenty-four hours. Yes, they are back online now! Both of them.

Also, after a great struggle over the past twenty-four hours, I am happy to report that I now have both Basilisk and SheepShaver set up properly on my iMac, and they both connect to the Internet as well.

Basically, they are a mirror image of each other. I want to see which of the two setups I like better, which is more robust, and which gives me less problems, such as system crashes and freeze-ups. Once I decide, I will keep the other one as a backup system for my BBS and Hotline server.
Bill Kochman
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