AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

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KnuddlMac
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AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

Moderator edit: This topic was split off from the original "Help needed for testing BasiliskII in recent macOS on Intel" into this new topic "AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper"

Just a note: I did check the Appletalk via Ethernet capabilities and did notice that both versions (recent BasiliskII builds) don't work on the networking part, as my most recent build (older one) from Kanjitalk.

That would be a fatal regression, out of my perspective.

Or...the necessary parameters to set the client up are somewhat special.
Kanjitalk did implement something based on my feedback and the resulting client did simply work with the following port setting:

etherhelper/en0

Please note: No TUN/TAP necessary!
And this was something I did never document and people are still asking about that feature, here in the forum.

I would vote for such a simple version being available here in the forum along with up to date install instructions.
And yes, this also runs with network access on Monterey!

Maybe CAT_7 could bring me up to speed with the network access support of most recent BAII versions.
Maybe I make a mistake or there was a special version for me, that should have been ported back to the baseline.

In any direction, please let me know if I could somehow volunteer.

Best,
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

KnuddlMac wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 6:37 pmKanjitalk did implement something based on my feedback and the resulting client did simply work with the following port setting:

etherhelper/en0

Please note: No TUN/TAP necessary!
When was this done?

Maybe I make a mistake or there was a special version for me, that should have been ported back to the baseline.
Could be. All builds presented here are from recent kanjitalk755 source.

Is there a discusion about this in an old reported issue somewhere on kanjitalk755/macemu? What about? What (approximate) date?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

KanjiTalk did reply on:

Sent: Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:57 am

And here is the relating post in the forum, I‘d guess:

viewtopic.php?p=65463#p65463
Last edited by KnuddlMac on Thu Nov 25, 2021 8:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

Here, I found it:

viewtopic.php?p=65530#p65530

With that version, I had a break through.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

This is the version, that runs without installed TUNTAPOSX kernel extensions.
Port settings to be applied are in my case (adapter dependent) 'etherhelper/en0'.

http://www.sealog.de/Mac/BasiliskII_net ... ut_tap.zip

On a MBP late 2013 13" network access also works via WiFi, but on a MBP 2019 13" just with the dock or a Thunderbolt Ethernet adapter.

I do recall, that I had a discussion with Kanjitalk to also integrate the 'etherhelpertool', which he did.
further Cat_7 instructed me, that in that configuration the TAP extension would not be necessary anymore and he is right.

The command

Code: Select all

kextstat | grep -v .com.apple
just shows my installed Virtual Box drivers.

Still BAII has full network functionality. Wouldn't that be a feature we should try to keep in our baseline?

Please give it a try and I am curious how your system reacts.


Happy hackin'
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

We are now off-topic. The original request for testing was about whether the latest universal builds would run in recent macOS on Intel.

Recent BasiliskII (and SheepShaver) builds should still support etherhelper.

The earliest notarized builds posted by me that were supposed to support etherhelper were the 8 March 2020 build and the 16 May 2020 build:
https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200308.zip
https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200516.zip

Do they work?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

You're right, my discussion did fade off a bit.

As per your request, I did test both notarized versions last night and did comment in my reply from:

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:50 am

Both versions did 'survive' speedometer tests and I could close both systems w/o interference.
I'd state they work running a System 7 application!

I could not establish Ethernet access under OS Monterey.
But the other build from Kanjitalk works and mybe it is my bad?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

KnuddlMac wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 9:39 amAs per your request, I did test both notarized versions last night and did comment in my reply from:

Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:50 am
You tested my recent 2021 builds to test if they run on Intel.

Did you test the ones from 2020 in my latest post to see if ethernet networking works in these earliest builds that are supposed to support etherhelper?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200308.zip

>> Tested and AppleTalk via Ethernet works!

https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200516.zip

>> Tested and AppleTalk via Ethernet works!
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by kanjitalk755 »

etherhelper/en0

Please note: No TUN/TAP necessary!
That's strange.
The etherhelper included in BasiliskII is a tool that automates ifconfig and requires a tap device.
Do you know from which commit did this binary build?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

Yes, without tap device is really strange. - Could it reuse some elements from another device package?
However, this code runs on two different machines with AppleTalk over Ethernet support.

There is one project that I recall was around that time:

BasiliskII/macemu-master 2020-03-09 Kopie/BasiliskII/src/MacOSX/BasiliskII.xcodeproj

We both were discussing etherhelper, you compiled a new build and it did work.
Is there some other element I could use to identify which commit have been used?
If of help, I could send you the ZIP of this project.


I can't build it anymore, something did change with Xcode or the system:

#####
make: *** No rule to make target `2020-03-09', needed by `/Users/Xcode/Library/Developer/Xcode/DerivedData/BasiliskII-ewdxtzfyywvpcoebokaipcxchsyz/Build/Products/Release/gencpu_output/build68k'. Stop.
etherhelpertool.c:315:11: warning: 'AuthorizationCopyPrivilegedReference' is deprecated: first deprecated in macOS 10.7 [-Wdeprecated-declarations]
status = AuthorizationCopyPrivilegedReference(&aRef, kAuthorizationFlagDefaults);
^
/Applications/Xcode.app/Contents/Developer/Platforms/MacOSX.platform/Developer/SDKs/MacOSX11.1.sdk/System/Library/Frameworks/Security.framework/Headers/Authorization.h:447:10: note: 'AuthorizationCopyPrivilegedReference' has been explicitly marked deprecated here
OSStatus AuthorizationCopyPrivilegedReference(AuthorizationRef __nullable * __nonnull authorization,
^
1 warning generated.
error: unable to open dependencies file (/Users/Xcode/Library/Developer/Xcode/DerivedData/BasiliskII-ewdxtzfyywvpcoebokaipcxchsyz/Build/Intermediates.noindex/BasiliskII.build/Release/BasiliskII.build/DerivedSources/.d) (in target 'BasiliskII' from project 'BasiliskII')
Command PhaseScriptExecution emitted errors but did not return a nonzero exit code to indicate failure
######
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Etherhelper support was indeed added to kanjitalk755 source in March 2020.
https://github.com/kanjitalk755/macemu/ ... 5d09c350d1

@ KnuddlMac
I understand that AppleTalk over Ethernet works for you with my March and May 2020 builds, but does not work with my recent universal builds. Correct?

@ kanjitalk755
etherhelpertool is present in all my builds (since March 2020)
Could anything have changed that disabled etherhelper support?
Or could there be a problem with relating to the (obviously installed) tap device?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

@Ronald: Yes, I felt that maybe existing functionality got lost over time.

About the TAP device. - If it doesn't get listed by 'kextstat', is there any other possibility to test for such device functionality?

I'll see if I can find other Macs for testing.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by kanjitalk755 »

Ronald P. Regensburg wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 3:15 pm etherhelpertool is present in all my builds (since March 2020)
Could anything have changed that disabled etherhelper support?
Or could there be a problem with relating to the (obviously installed) tap device?
Etherhelper is always enabled at build time, but the following line is required in the prefs for it to work at runtime.
e.g.:

Code: Select all

ether etherhelper/tap1/bridge1/en0
The following setting is invalid because BII can't select which tap device to use.

Code: Select all

ether etherhelper/en0
So it's strange that it works with older builds.

KnuddlMac wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 4:30 pm About the TAP device. - If it doesn't get listed by 'kextstat', is there any other possibility to test for such device functionality?
Check if there are tap device files.

Code: Select all

$ ls /dev/tap*
/dev/tap0 /dev/tap1 ...
If BII successfully configures the devices, those will appear in ifconfig.

Code: Select all

$ ifconfig -a
...
tap1: ...
...
bridge1: ...
...
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

You have a PM waiting.

To sumarize results:

1st: No TAP device gets listed in subdirectory /dev

2nd: ifconfig shows no TAP file and I didn't ask for it anyhow as my port settings are just: etherhelper/en6

One additional note: I was successful installing the same BA Folder on an Adobe dedicated multimedia Mac with just El Capitan and CS6.
Here again I could work with my AppleShare and play Bolo with the other machines.

If you want, we could schedule a MS teams or Zoom meeting and you can see how it works, take-over control on the console and verify current settings of that machine.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by kanjitalk755 »

I was wrong.
Etherhelper is also implemented a method that does not use a tap device, but it is very unstable.
The method of using a tap device seems to be stable, so please try this.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

Thank you for your research!

Until Catalina came up, installing TAP devices was possible using TUNTAPOSX.
Then things became more difficult with notarization (I think). Here we used special Tunnelblick builds creating us a TAP device.

With Monterey (at least so far) I was able to create TAP devices, but I could not instantiate a TAP device using BAII.
Some expert knowledge might help the group, but this is good food for thought for another thread here in the BAII forum.

Ronald already made the valid point, that this is off topic. - And he is right.
I will create a separate thread here in the forum, to discuss creation of TAP devices and how to connect with BAII.

Thanks again for your support and continued contribution!
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Janne W »

KnuddlMac wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 12:47 pm https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200308.zip

>> Tested and AppleTalk via Ethernet works!

https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200516.zip

>> Tested and AppleTalk via Ethernet works!
Hi,

installed this => https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200308.zip

...still missing a step here, so I don't need tuntap with this but the etherhelper? What would be the needed ethernet interface (obviously no slirp) on GUI with this setup?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

I split this topic into the original "Help needed for testing BasiliskII in recent macOS on Intel" and this new "AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper"
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by KnuddlMac »

Thanks Ronald, for merging this topic into its own fork!

@Janne: You are right, there are a bunch of parameters in the OS7 GUI, that need to be set up.

Please have a look at possible settings: https://sealog.de/Mac

There you should find text instructions along with screen shots like this:
Image

Please feel free to ask questions here, that's the right place.
And when it works, also please leave your comments.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by mabam »

This looks very interesting!

I didn’t have time any sooner so I just tested this today.
To begin with: My host machine runs Catalina.

I first tried the 16 May 2020 built from https://www.emaculation.com/basilisk/Ba ... 200516.zip as that was reported working by @KnuddlMac. I entered etherhelper/en0 using the Basilisk II GUI App and launched Basilisk II. I was then indeed asked for my password and AppleTalk worked, I could see my LaserWriter 4/600 PS in the chooser!

I then tried the most recent Basilisk II build (1 August 2021) but it crashed on launch. So I tried the 21 April 2021 build as suggested at viewtopic.php?p=72457#p72457 – but it also crashed on launch.

Strangely, at any subsequent approach to start Basilisk II – even the 16 May 2020 build that worked initially – it crashed on launch. Deleting the xpram file and resetting the prefs file from backup didn’t help. Neither did restarting my host machine.

I’m lost. Does anyone have any suggestion at this point?
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Very strange indeed. As BasiliskII crashes on launch, the virtual HD cannot be involved. Otherwise I would try to replace the HD image from backup as well.

My latest Intel only build (April 2021) was compiled in Catalina on Intel and did not have any known issues except the caps-lock key issue.
My universal builds run fine on Intel for most, but not for some for as yet unknown reasons.

kanjitalk755 warned that the simple etherhelper setting (without tap device) is not stable.

Did you make sure to not expand the zip archives in the place where you use the BasiliskII application? That will activate a security feature in macOS that will prevent launching BasiliskII. The solution is to copy the application to a different location, trash the original application and then move the copy back to where the original was.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by mabam »

After downloading, I moved the zip file to the application folder, unzipped it there and moved the app into a new folder I created within the application folder. There I added the remaining files required to run Basilisk II from an older setup. Then I launched the May 2020 build just fine.

I repeated this procedure for the newer builds but then ran into the problems described in my last post.

Ronald P. Regensburg wrote: Thu Dec 02, 2021 10:43 pm Did you make sure to not expand the zip archives in the place where you use the BasiliskII application? That will activate a security feature in macOS that will prevent launching BasiliskII. The solution is to copy the application to a different location, trash the original application and then move the copy back to where the original was.
Unfortunately, it doesn’t fix the problem when following this procedure now.


EDIT:

I still had an old Basilisk II setup in a folder originally called “Basilisk II” within the applications folder. That folder I renamed to “Basilisk II old” before creating new folders (with build date appended) for today’s setups. That old setup did launch before setting up the new ones, but wouldn’t anymore after running into the mentioned problems. Neither did the old setup launch after removing all the new ones (and emptying the trash). But it did again after I just renamed its folder back to “Basilisk II”.

Now, after creating a copy of that folder (automatically named “Basilisk II Kopie” by the system) and replacing the Basilisk II app within it with a new download, this new one does launch again. That goes for both, the May 2020 and the August 2021 build. But for me it’s the same as for KnuddlMac:
With the May 2020 build AppleTalk does work and with the August 2021 it doesn’t.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

Well. nothing I can do about this. Maybe kanjitalk755 can. However, he advises to use the method with tap device.
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Re: AppleTalk over Ethernet and use of etherhelper

Post by mabam »

I know that the tap device is the advised way to do it. But chances are that, with new versions of macOS, Apple completely disallowes kexts soon. And though etherhelper not being stable, if it does the job for AppleTalk (which is slow anyway) I’m completely fine. And its’s easy to use, too. For everything IP based there are other, stable, methods.
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