Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

About Qemu-system-m68k, a m68k Mac emulator for Windows, macOS and Linux that can run MacOS 7.1 to 8.1, AUX 3.x and NetBSD

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marbre
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

I've been playing with your macOS alpha app, having installed system 7 Pro on a 2gig hard drive image. It's been very stable, but I'm experiencing a high load on the host. What could be causing it? Is there a way to throttle it back?

I'm also experiencing a graphics refresh issue with Prince of Persia in 256k color. It opens with a black screen and music, if I click in the window the graphics suddenly appear. During scene changes, only a portion of the graphics are displayed, however as the character moves across the scene the graphic is updated. I'm guessing it has something to do with the alpha build?
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

I'm guessing it has something to do with the alpha build?
I wouldn't know. That would be something for the developer to look into.

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

marbre wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:08 am I've been playing with your macOS alpha app, having installed system 7 Pro on a 2gig hard drive image. It's been very stable, but I'm experiencing a high load on the host. What could be causing it? Is there a way to throttle it back?

I'm also experiencing a graphics refresh issue with Prince of Persia in 256k color. It opens with a black screen and music, if I click in the window the graphics suddenly appear. During scene changes, only a portion of the graphics are displayed, however as the character moves across the scene the graphic is updated. I'm guessing it has something to do with the alpha build?
Just to be clear: the developers aren't the ones providing test builds here, so the best place to report bugs is probably the Issues tracker on https://gitlab.com/mcayland/qemu/-/tree/q800.upstream2 -- either that, or hope that Mark reads this thread :)
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

adespoton wrote: Fri Aug 19, 2022 3:20 pm Just to be clear: the developers aren't the ones providing test builds here, so the best place to report bugs is probably the Issues tracker on https://gitlab.com/mcayland/qemu/-/tree/q800.upstream2 -- either that, or hope that Mark reads this thread :)
My apologies, I did stray off topic.

I see networking is discussed for windows host and A/UX on macOS, how about System 7/8? Is it possible using Open Transport?

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

Hi,

What exactly would you like to do with OT?
It used for network connections over the ethernet card, but also for modem connection through the printer/modem port.

Ethernet works, including Appletalk. I believe there is no modem/printer port available to connect to a real modem.

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

Cat_7 wrote: Sat Aug 20, 2022 9:09 pm What exactly would you like to do with OT?
Port forwarding to the host (Big Sur).
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

Sure,

You can use something like: -nic user,hostfwd=tcp::8080-:80
Take a look here: https://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/m6 ... rk_options

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

What have I missed?

Code: Select all

qemu-system-m68k-MacOS-alpha: —nic: Could not open '—nic': No such file or directory
Edit: needed the model number

Code: Select all

-nic user,model=dp83932,hostfwd=tcp::8080-:80 \
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

I believe I have it working, 'info usernet' shows

Code: Select all

(qemu) info usernet
Hub -1 (#net062):
  Protocol[State]    FD  Source Address  Port   Dest. Address  Port RecvQ SendQ
  TCP[HOST_FORWARD]  15               *  8080       10.0.2.15    80     0     0
  UDP[200 sec]       12       10.0.2.15 32768        10.0.2.3    53     0     0
Is there a way to share folders?

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

Hi,

No, not like the shared folder functionality available in Basilisk or SheepShaver.
You can install something like an ftp server inside Mac OS and forward the ftp port as you did with the http port.

https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/netpresenz
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/ftpd-v300
https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/rumpus-20-ftp-server

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

Cat_7 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:01 am You can install something like an ftp server inside Mac OS and forward the ftp port as you did with the http port.
What about connecting to an FTP server (i.e. remote login) from the Mac OS 11 Finder, which would allow me to copy files to and from it?
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

marbre wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 1:27 pm
Cat_7 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 5:01 am You can install something like an ftp server inside Mac OS and forward the ftp port as you did with the http port.
What about connecting to an FTP server (i.e. remote login) from the Mac OS 11 Finder, which would allow me to copy files to and from it?
That should also work, as long as you're running an FTP server on the host (which is insecure if your host ever leaves a trusted network).

Since your host OS is macOS 11, check out my other thread in General about the hfsfuse filesystem plugin working again -- as long as you only mount the image on the host OR guest at any given time, you can copy files on/off to your heart's content, with proper resource fork handling, file names and metadata. I recommend using a second image for this purpose so you don't accidentally open it in both places at once.

QEMU also includes a built-in SMB share that's a bit flaky and may not work in m68k (I haven't tested it, YMMV): it's enabled using `-net user,smb=<file path to share>`.

QEMU ALSO includes a built-in FAT-16 share that's REALLY flaky and may not work in m68k (same disclosure as above): it's enabled using `-drive file=fat:rw:<file path to share>,bus=0,unit=1,if=scsi,format=raw,media=disk` and may require fiddling with the unit value and WILL require the DOS filesystem extension. If you go this route, I suggest trying out Mt Everything as well, to recognize and mount the filesystem.

Cat_7 probably has a pocket full of good reasons not to try the last two options, from garbled file names to loss of resource forks to "it doesn't actually work on m68k" but I figured I'd capture all the potential options in one place :)

Note that using "regular" file sharing on the host or guest (SMB or AppleShare IP) won't work, as the host and guest have no compatible versions of either of these protocols.
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

Enabling remote login under 'Sharing' allows SFTP access to the host to copy files to and from it--simple, if it works. If I need an ftp server on the host side, I was thinking CyberDuck.

hfsfuse would make disk swapping easier, but I haven't figured out how to do that on the fly. I've been modifying the shell script every time I needed to use an image or cdrom--very tedious. I tried 'change' but haven't got it work.
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by mabam »

adespoton wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 2:57 pm Note that using "regular" file sharing on the host or guest (SMB or AppleShare IP) won't work, as the host and guest have no compatible versions of either of these protocols.
Well, installing netatalk on the host should restore compatibility:
viewtopic.php?t=11123
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

Cat_7 probably has a pocket full of good reasons not to try the last two options
Haha, so true ;-)

Seeing all those possibilities to exchange files, I notice we don't have a full overview of options and contexts (user, tap or vmnet) / (local network, internet) in which they work. But surely we need to leave some tinkering to the user ;-)

Do we have a modern enough ftp client for Mac OS 8 to connect to built-in s/ftp on the host?

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

Cat_7 wrote: Tue Aug 23, 2022 6:25 pm
Cat_7 probably has a pocket full of good reasons not to try the last two options
Haha, so true ;-)

Seeing all those possibilities to exchange files, I notice we don't have a full overview of options and contexts (user, tap or vmnet) / (local network, internet) in which they work. But surely we need to leave some tinkering to the user ;-)

Do we have a modern enough ftp client for Mac OS 8 to connect to built-in s/ftp on the host?

Best,
Cat_7
The bigger issue is 68k support; there's no hardware support for encryption, so anything's going to be really slow and resource intensive. MacSFTP is available for Mac OS 8.1+, but it's PPC-only. Something to watch that IS compatible right back to the Mac Plus is https://github.com/cy384/ssheven/releases -- but he hasn't got file transfer implemented yet. It also appears that SSHeven doesn't implement TLS1.2/1.3, which means it can't connect to modern ssh servers that have protocol fallback disabled (for very valid security reasons).
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

ftp isn't working when set to active mode

Code: Select all

ncftp> open -P 2121 localhost
Connecting to 127.0.0.1...                                                                
NetPresenz v4.1 awaits your command.
Logging in...                                                                             
This file must be in the Startup Messages folder in either the same
    folder as NetPresenz or in the NetPresenz Preferences folder in the
    Preferences folder, and will be displayed to guests user when they log
    in.  Guest users log in by using the username "ftp" or "anonymous".
Anonymous login to 1 volumes.  Access restrictions apply.  "/".
Logged in to localhost.                                                                   
ncftp / > rhelp SITE
SITE ABCHILPQSUV - See "HELP SITE <letter>".
ncftp / > quote PWD
"/" PWD  command successful.
ncftp / > quote TYPE I
Type set to I, binary transfer mode [macbinary disabled].
ncftp / > quote PORT 10,0,2,15,187,185
PORT command successful.
ncftp / > quote LIST
ASCII transfer started.
ncftp / > close
in guest, NetPresenz log shows "NcFTP @4 transfer failed -23008".
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

marbre wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 1:53 pm ftp isn't working when set to active mode

Code: Select all

ncftp> open -P 2121 localhost
Connecting to 127.0.0.1...                                                                
NetPresenz v4.1 awaits your command.
Logging in...                                                                             
This file must be in the Startup Messages folder in either the same
    folder as NetPresenz or in the NetPresenz Preferences folder in the
    Preferences folder, and will be displayed to guests user when they log
    in.  Guest users log in by using the username "ftp" or "anonymous".
Anonymous login to 1 volumes.  Access restrictions apply.  "/".
Logged in to localhost.                                                                   
ncftp / > rhelp SITE
SITE ABCHILPQSUV - See "HELP SITE <letter>".
ncftp / > quote PWD
"/" PWD  command successful.
ncftp / > quote TYPE I
Type set to I, binary transfer mode [macbinary disabled].
ncftp / > quote PORT 10,0,2,15,187,185
PORT command successful.
ncftp / > quote LIST
ASCII transfer started.
ncftp / > close
in guest, NetPresenz log shows "NcFTP @4 transfer failed -23008".
Active mode means the server connects out to the client to make the data transfer on a randomly selected port specified by the client in the data transfer request. In this case, you're attempting to get the NetPrezenz server to connect to the ncftp client at address 10.0.2.15 on ports 187 and 185. Is everything set up to support that on the host?
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

Could use some help. Right now I have

Code: Select all

-nic user,model=dp83932,hostfwd=tcp::2121-:21,hostfwd=tcp::8080-:80 \
It's counter-intuitive that I have to use localhost:2121 to open the connection, when Mac OS is on 10.0.2.15:21 according to NetPresenz. Very confusing.
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by Cat_7 »

You don't _have_ to use the port numbers suggested. Using the suggested numbers mainly prevents interfering with services that might already run on those ports on the host.

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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

marbre wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 2:58 pm Could use some help. Right now I have

Code: Select all

-nic user,model=dp83932,hostfwd=tcp::2121-:21,hostfwd=tcp::8080-:80 \
It's counter-intuitive that I have to use localhost:2121 to open the connection, when Mac OS is on 10.0.2.15:21 according to NetPresenz. Very confusing.
Think of it this way: you've got a host system, which may or may not have an FTP server sitting listening on port 21, and likely nothing listening on port 2121.

Then you've got the guest system, that needs to open up some ports. It can't reliably open a port on port 21, because all that QEMU is doing here is passing through traffic that's on a port on the host system. And port 21 may already be occupied by other non-QEMU processes.

So that configuration opens a connection on the host on port 2121 and passes all data it receives to a virtual port 21 on the guest. So as far as the guest is concerned, the traffic came through on port 21, but in reality it went to the host on port 2121.

But with FTP, there are TWO channels in use: the control channel (used for sending commands) that listens on port 21 for new connections, and the data channel (used for sending files etc.) that uses a random port.

In the early days of FTP, there was only Active mode. Active mode works by the ftp client that's already connected to the server over the control channel (port 21) sending a request for data that includes instructions for what port on the client machine the SERVER should connect to to send the data. This was useful because you could have a different client managing the request than the one receiving the data -- so client A could request a file from server B, but tell it to send the file to client C... and the server would do so.

However, this ran into issues with subnetworks and firewalls, where the server may not actually be able to access the client's IP/port directly. So the solution was to create Passive mode, where the server opened a new random port and told the client where to connect to download the file. This worked, because the client could already connect to the server IP, and the server could adjust its firewall rules to allow the client's IP address to access the temporary port to make the connection and download the file.

The issue with QEMU, is we've got the entire situation in reverse. The client has no restrictions regarding address or port, but the SERVER is abstracted away -- any ports opened on it won't actually be viewable on the host or any other systems on the subnet unless there is an explicit mapping from the host to the guest to allow it. Which is difficult when the ports are being dynamically opened on a random port on the fly by the guest.

So the solution is to go back to using Active mode, and then have your FTP client explicitly name the IP and random port where it is accessible to the guest-hosted server.

For SLIP connections though, there is generally no direct route to the host interfaces; you can't loop back to the host from the guest. But connecting from a secondary interface (either on another computer on the subnet, or on the same host) should let you do so.

Confusing? yes. Especially when all you really want is to transfer files between a running guest system and the host system.
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

My MacBook is using these ports

Code: Select all

q800_vm $ sudo lsof -nP -iTCP -sTCP:LISTEN
Password:
COMMAND     PID   USER   FD   TYPE             DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME
launchd       1   root    7u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486654fccb      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root    8u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556453      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   10u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486654fccb      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   11u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556453      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   24u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486655032b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   26u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556e7b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   28u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486655032b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   29u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556e7b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
kdc         137   root    5u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486655098b      0t0  TCP *:88 (LISTEN)
kdc         137   root    7u  IPv4 0x7e1d8448665578a3      0t0  TCP *:88 (LISTEN)
rapportd  43226 marbre    5u  IPv4 0x7e1d844880434593      0t0  TCP *:61204 (LISTEN)
rapportd  43226 marbre    6u  IPv6 0x7e1d8448862abccb      0t0  TCP *:61204 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  108u  IPv6 0x7e1d8448862ac98b      0t0  TCP *:17500 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  109u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f483fbb      0t0  TCP *:17500 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  137u  IPv4 0x7e1d84488045ba2b      0t0  TCP 127.0.0.1:17600 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  141u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f482143      0t0  TCP 127.0.0.1:17603 (LISTEN)
qemu-syst 84880 marbre   15u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f483593      0t0  TCP *:8080 (LISTEN)
qemu-syst 84880 marbre   16u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f48171b      0t0  TCP *:2121 (LISTEN)
q800_vm $ ncftp
Traditionally, ftp uses port 20 for data transfer. Do I need a third port to forward, i.e.

Code: Select all

-nic user,model=dp83932,hostfwd=tcp::2020-:20,hostfwd=tcp::2121-:21,hostfwd=tcp::8080-:80 \
and then set PORT

Code: Select all

ncftp / > quote HELP PORT
PORT <h0>, <h1>, <h2>, <h3>, <p0>, <p1> - machine/port to send/receive from.
NetPresenz log has 10.0.2.2 for machine, should I use that or localhost?

PORT 10,0,2,2,20
or PORT 127,0,0,1,2020
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

marbre wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 6:02 pm My MacBook is using these ports

Code: Select all

q800_vm $ sudo lsof -nP -iTCP -sTCP:LISTEN
Password:
COMMAND     PID   USER   FD   TYPE             DEVICE SIZE/OFF NODE NAME
launchd       1   root    7u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486654fccb      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root    8u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556453      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   10u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486654fccb      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   11u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556453      0t0  TCP *:22 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   24u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486655032b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   26u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556e7b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   28u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486655032b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
launchd       1   root   29u  IPv4 0x7e1d844866556e7b      0t0  TCP *:445 (LISTEN)
kdc         137   root    5u  IPv6 0x7e1d84486655098b      0t0  TCP *:88 (LISTEN)
kdc         137   root    7u  IPv4 0x7e1d8448665578a3      0t0  TCP *:88 (LISTEN)
rapportd  43226 marbre    5u  IPv4 0x7e1d844880434593      0t0  TCP *:61204 (LISTEN)
rapportd  43226 marbre    6u  IPv6 0x7e1d8448862abccb      0t0  TCP *:61204 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  108u  IPv6 0x7e1d8448862ac98b      0t0  TCP *:17500 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  109u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f483fbb      0t0  TCP *:17500 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  137u  IPv4 0x7e1d84488045ba2b      0t0  TCP 127.0.0.1:17600 (LISTEN)
Dropbox   83327 marbre  141u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f482143      0t0  TCP 127.0.0.1:17603 (LISTEN)
qemu-syst 84880 marbre   15u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f483593      0t0  TCP *:8080 (LISTEN)
qemu-syst 84880 marbre   16u  IPv4 0x7e1d84487f48171b      0t0  TCP *:2121 (LISTEN)
q800_vm $ ncftp
Traditionally, ftp uses port 20 for data transfer. Do I need a third port to forward, i.e.

Code: Select all

-nic user,model=dp83932,hostfwd=tcp::2020-:20,hostfwd=tcp::2121-:21,hostfwd=tcp::8080-:80 \
and then set PORT

Code: Select all

ncftp / > quote HELP PORT
PORT <h0>, <h1>, <h2>, <h3>, <p0>, <p1> - machine/port to send/receive from.
NetPresenz log has 10.0.2.2 for machine, should I use that or localhost?

PORT 10,0,2,2,20
or PORT 127,0,0,1,2020
Port forwarding should only be needed if you're in Passive mode. Otherwise, it's the client that's listening, not the server. So the issue is ensuring that the server can connect to the host port the client is listening on. If you run a web server on port 80 on the host, can a browser in the guest connect to it? If yes, FTP *should* be working already. If no, then you've got an issue with SLIrP network routing you need to solve some other way -- it's possible you need to connect ncftp to a different interface (try en0 IP, 10.0.2.2 and localhost and see if one of them works).
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by marbre »

I don't have a web server running. I can connect to the ftp server on the guest, I'm not able to list directory contents or do file transfer. I don't know anything about SLIrP.

btw, I started with passive but was having the same issues with dir listing and transfers.
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Re: Qemu-system-m68k for macOS to run MacOS 7.1-8.1

Post by adespoton »

marbre wrote: Thu Aug 25, 2022 9:22 pm I don't have a web server running. I can connect to the ftp server on the guest, I'm not able to list directory contents or do file transfer. I don't know anything about SLIrP.

btw, I started with passive but was having the same issues with dir listing and transfers.
Do you have any service running on the host that you can try connecting to with the guest? Because that appears to be where your current issues are. Going with Active instead of Passive is the right route, but if your network proxying from the guest to the host is over SLIrP, you can only connect out to other devices, not to the host. And since Active FTP has the data connection going from the server to the client, it won't be able to reach the client if it's running on the host. There are workarounds for this, however, including reverse port redirection.
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