BIN/CUE support

About SheepShaver, a PPC Mac emulator for Windows, MacOS X, and Linux that can run System 7.5.3 to MacOS 9.0.4.

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almeath
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BIN/CUE support

Post by almeath »

I see there was a recent commit on the macemu GitHub repository to “fix” bin cue support for SheepShaver.

https://github.com/kanjitalk755/macemu/ ... ed2bad0234

I anticipate that this will only fix the issue of not being able to mount and read this type of image?

I have tested other unofficial patches over the years with mixed mode CD games, it it mostly results in failure.. unrecognized audio tracks and severe crashes and freeze ups.

It would be great if one day I can again enjoy some classic mixed mode CD games like the Alone in the Dark trilogy and Descent.
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

BIn/cue support has been in SheepShaver for some time.

I only tried this in SheepShaver for macOS, latest build from kanjitalk755 fork as posted here.

From Macintosh Garden you can download Alone in the Dark 2 and 3 as zipped (OSX zip) bin/cue pairs.
Unzip and make sure both files are together in the same folder.
In SheepShaver preferences add the cue file as CD-ROM
At next launch of SheepShaver the CD will appear on the SheepShaver desktop.

I am no gamer, so I do not know what to expect, but the game seems to run fine.
almeath
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by almeath »

Thanks. I have built SheepShaver off the latest source on the kanjitalk755 repository.

If I use Alone in the Dark 2 as an example:

1. The CD will mount properly.
2. The audio tracks can be played in the AppleCD Audio Player.
3. Installing the game and running it off the hard disk will result in an error that the CD is not inserted.
4. Running directly off the CD will launch the game, but the only music options available are are the 'low' and 'high' quality MIDI music. The CD audio option is greyed out and unavailable for use.

This is essentially what happened when I tested this a couple years ago using unofficial BIN/CUE patches. Not a single game using CD music would work properly. Another example was Warcraft. It seems the current state of the code works well for playing audio tracks directly off the image and within the Finder, but it fails to emulate something that the MacOS is looking for when trying to access CD audio from within applications.

Any feedback from other forum members would be appreciated.
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

CD-quality audio does not work in SheepShaver, but everything else seems to work, including audio in lower qualities.
Is this a problem for playing the game? And is this a bin/cue support issue?

SheepShaver can play audio files. But SheepShaver cannot mount and play Audio CDs. Could this be related?

How did you play the audio tracks in the AppleCD Audio Player? I cannot even launch the player.
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Re: Support for playing Redbook audio from BIN/CUE images

Post by almeath »

I am a bit confused by your first statement, because CD-quality audio (as encoded in the bin/cue image) appears to work fine. As mentioned, I can play the Redbook audio tracks from Alone in the Dark 2 directly within the AppleCD Audio Player in System 7.5.5.

I acknowledge the title of the thread should have been more precise. I have edited it accordingly in this reply.

It is true that I can still play a game such as Alone in the Dark 2 with the MIDI soundtrack enabled. However, that defeats the purpose for me, as I aim to play games with Redbook audio tracks (i.e. Descent, Warcraft etc.) at the full CD quality that Redbook audio enables.

I do not know enough about programming to understand whether this is an issue with the code to support mounting of BIN/CUE images in the Finder, or whether this is related to something else, hence the reason I raised the thread.

So, I am not sure what I an doing differently to you in relation to the CD player. I installed it as part of a standard System 7 installation, mounted the BIN/CUE per your instructions, and when I opened the player I can see the whole track listing - and they play perfectly, in 44.1 kHz CD audio as far as I can tell.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/5x4ie34ws7bxy ... o.jpg?dl=0
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

almeath wrote: Mon Aug 15, 2022 1:02 pm I am a bit confused by your first statement, because CD-quality audio (as encoded in the bin/cue image) appears to work fine.
I meant that the CD quality audio option is not available in the game, as you also noted.

I did not realise that the audio quality could be an important part of the game experience. But, as I mentioned, I am not a gamer.

The AppleCD Audio Player not working was my fault. I can also play the tracks in the player. Remarkable, because afaik SheepShaver cannot handle audio CDs.

I am not sure what the fix does that was added in the recent commit. Your newly compiled SheepShaver seems to work the same as my January 2022 build.
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by almeath »

Thanks for testing it further. Yes, the audio quality difference can be quite marked when playing some of those mixed mode CD games. I think most games of the era churned out 8 bit sound, whereas hearing the crisp CD audio music playing in Alone in the Dark 2 and 3 is an experience I still remember to this day. I played the originals on a Performa 5400 and recall being able to select "CD audio" from the in-game drop down menu.

I hope one day this functionality will reach SheepShaver. :smile:
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Elyus »

Looks like the recent commit is to ensure the makefile can handle bin/cue compilation rather than including any code changes.

Here are the currently supported bin/cue formats. Red Book Mode 1 is most common for mixed-mode discs, but it is a CD-ROM format only, whereas the general Red Book format for CD-DA is not currently supported. This enables full quality CD audio for supported CD-ROMs, but actual audio CDs will need additional work. I think one of the barriers to supporting audio CDs is the difficulty of getting clean images due to copyright protections, like key2audio. As a preservationist, I've always found these types of copy protections frustrating!

Regarding CD-ROMs, many mixed-mode games are currently supported in BII and Sheepshaver. For instance, Warcraft II and Descent will work, but they have a separate speed issue that affects gameplay. Other ones I've tested like Prime Target and Derrat Sorcerum, as well as the Voyager enhanced CD-ROMs, work well. After Dark 3 runs but has to be installed on the hard drive and launched from there; it uses a software lock to prevent CD audio if the game isn't installed locally, written under the outdated assumption that the CD drive is too slow to stream both data and audio.

Warcraft I and After Dark 2 are notable exceptions. As far as I know, it's an issue with how they're written: they only support Apple's built-in CD-ROM drive, but Sheepshaver presents the CD as a third-party device. I agree it'd be nice to have this working!
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macplus
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by macplus »

Elyus wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:45 pm they only support Apple's built-in CD-ROM drive, but Sheepshaver presents the CD as a third-party device
IIRC, aren't Macs unable to read CDs from third-party drives with Apple's default driver, included in almost all versions of Mac OS? (except System 7.6.1 I think)
Had that been the problem, then how are CDs able to be read just fine from Finder?
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Elyus »

Hmm, you have a good point. I was thinking in terms of Apple vs third party, but due to its HLE nature, SheepShaver is not quite one or the other. It overwrites the default driver with a custom one that pretends to be an Apple one. While most software seems fine with that, games like Warcraft and AITD 2 fail to find their disc.

I worry something is missing in SheepShaver's driver implementation, but I've also wondered if the problem is SheepShaver's lack of SCSI emulation. I believe most, if not all, Apple computers with built-in optical drives used SCSI with the internal CD drive at ID#3. It's plausible to me that some programs are relying on the SCSI manager to detect their disc, which will fail in SheepShaver.
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by adespoton »

Elyus wrote: Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:26 am Hmm, you have a good point. I was thinking in terms of Apple vs third party, but due to its HLE nature, SheepShaver is not quite one or the other. It overwrites the default driver with a custom one that pretends to be an Apple one. While most software seems fine with that, games like Warcraft and AITD 2 fail to find their disc.

I worry something is missing in SheepShaver's driver implementation, but I've also wondered if the problem is SheepShaver's lack of SCSI emulation. I believe most, if not all, Apple computers with built-in optical drives used SCSI with the internal CD drive at ID#3. It's plausible to me that some programs are relying on the SCSI manager to detect their disc, which will fail in SheepShaver.
I wonder what would happen if the FWB CD-ROM Toolkit was installed and the SS fake hardware was modified to report as third party (Matsushita 4x perhaps)? FWB had much more robust handling than Apple, and I was able to get it to do things that the default drivers alone couldn't do.
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by almeath »

Elyus wrote: Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:45 pm Regarding CD-ROMs, many mixed-mode games are currently supported in BII and Sheepshaver. For instance, Warcraft II and Descent will work, but they have a separate speed issue that affects gameplay. Other ones I've tested like Prime Target and Derrat Sorcerum, as well as the Voyager enhanced CD-ROMs, work well. After Dark 3 runs but has to be installed on the hard drive and launched from there; it uses a software lock to prevent CD audio if the game isn't installed locally, written under the outdated assumption that the CD drive is too slow to stream both data and audio.

Warcraft I and After Dark 2 are notable exceptions. As far as I know, it's an issue with how they're written: they only support Apple's built-in CD-ROM drive, but Sheepshaver presents the CD as a third-party device. I agree it'd be nice to have this working!
Incidentally, I also tested Alone in the Dark 3. That too, has the "CD audio" option greyed out, even when installed to the hard disk. Like Alone in the Dark 2, the audio tracks will play normally in the AppleCD Audio Player.
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

dear experts,
I am desperate and hope that I can get help here in the forum.
After two days of trying, you are the last hope :)
i have a similar problem with .bin/.cue images.

it's about the game colonization
I have it in .bin /.cue format.
in the game you can only hear the music via cd, but since there is a known problem with the formats, i can't hear any music.
I've tried it with Mac OS 7.6.1 and 8.04, always the same problem.
Image


I put the .bin and .cue files in sheep shaver. a CD is also recognized in OS and I can install the game, but no tracks are played, not even displayed. I have now burned the .cue/.bin file with power iso onto a real blank cd and placed it in my windows cd rom drive and then told sheepshaver to read the cd from my L drive. CD is also displayed here in OS. now even the audio tracks are recognized on the cd in the game. but i can't play it. nothing happens and you don't hear anything.
Image

then i put an original music cd in my windows computer and started the cd player in the os, but when i go to the tracks this error message comes up.
Image
Image

my questions: is it possible:
1: play simple audio cds (regardless of whether they are real cds or image files) in the emulator?
2: is it possible to play mixed cd (audio+data) = .cue/.bin images in the case of the game colonization?

I hope I was able to explain myself well, my English is not good
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

1. SheepShaver can play audio files (if the file format is known to MacOS). It is not possible to play Audio CDs in SheepShaver.

2. If you have the bin and cue pair as two separate files:
- Place the two files together in one folder.
- In Windows, right-click the files, and set them to “read only” in the “properties” menu
- In SheepShaver GUI, add the cue file (not the bin file) to the volumes list
- At next SheepShaver launch, the CD should appear on the SheepShaver desktop
Lopez72
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

thank you for the fast response :)
I have already taken these steps, I even just repeated them in detail, but unfortunately still the same problem. the cd will be displayed and you can install the game. that wasn't the problem. only you don't hear any music in the game, if you select the individual tracks in the menu you don't hear any music. the sounds (noises) can be heard, only the music from the cd is still mute.
Image

feel free to check it out yourself the image can be found on macintoshgarden
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

The game runs fine here, with all sounds, including the music. That is in SheepShaver for macOS with MacOS 9.0.4 installed.

Which SheepShaver build for Windows do you use? Is it a recent build offered by Cat_7 in this forum?

Did you leave the CD mounted? Without the CD there is no music.
Lopez72
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

I used this one
viewtopic.php?t=5325
(SheepShaver for Windows (03-12-2022)
or could it be my rom for the emulator, which one are you using?

that would be absolutely awesome if that worked!!
Last edited by Lopez72 on Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
Lopez72
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

yes i left the cd mounted. Thank you again for your help, I am now full of hope that it could work.
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

ok next try:
can you at least tell me where my mistake is, because I really want this to work :)
what have I done:?
1: I downloaded the latest version for windows:
viewtopic.php?t=5325
SheepShaver for Windows (03-12-2022)

2: then used the ROM 5500.ROM and then installed Apple Mac OS 9.0.4

3: then I got the colonization images (e.g. from macintoshgarden) and marked both files of the image file (.cue and .bin) as read-only)

4: then in the GIU just added the image Colonization.cue and started Mac OS, it looked like this:
Image

5: the image appears under Mac OS, but is not recognized as a mixed CD, since no tracks are recognized

6: I can install the game without any problems and can also be started, but you can see the image is somehow not recognized correctly, I can select infinite tracks with the player, although I think the image only has 26 audio tracks
Image

7: for comparison: I burned the colonization images onto a blank CD and inserted it into my CD drive and then controlled it in the GUI, instead of the image, it then looks like this for comparison: (you can see on the burned CD you can only select up to track 27)
Image
Image
= but also i hear no music :(

8: in general: I hear sound but no music in the game, that's exactly my problem :(
it would be sooooo great if you could help me to finally solve the problem so i can hear the music like you do

here are my prefs for info:
disk HD
disk Games
disk Disk\colonization.cue
cdrom L:\
extfs
screen win/1024/768
windowmodes 3
screenmodes 63
seriala COM1
serialb COM2
rom ROM\5500.ROM
bootdrive 0
bootdriver 0
ramsize 268435456
frameskip 0
gfxaccel true
nocdrom true
nonet false
nosound false
nogui false
noclipconversion false
ignoresegv true
ignoreillegal true
jit true
jit68k false
keyboardtype 5
hardcursor false
hotkey 0
scale_nearest false
scale_integer false
cpuclock 0
yearofs 0
dayofs 0
mag_rate 0
swap_opt_cmd true
sound_buffer 0
name_encoding 0
keycodes false
mousewheelmode 1
mousewheellines 3
idlewait true
keycodes false
mousewheelmode 1
mousewheellines 3
enableextfs true
debugextfs false
extdrives CDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ
pollmedia true
etherpermanentaddress true
ethermulticastmode 0
routerenabled false
ftp_port_list 21
portfile0 C:\B2TEMP0.OUT
portfile1 C:\B2TEMP1.OUT
sdlrender software
sdl_vsync false
reservewindowskey false

thank you!!
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

The way CD images are mounted in SheepShaver for macOS is different from how it is done in SheepShaver for Windows. When I do it here the same way as in Windows, there is indeed no sound. As both SheepShaver versions share much of their code, the macOS way may also work in Windows. In macOS it is implemented in the Preferences/Settings (GUI), in Windows you will need to edit the prefs file manually in a text editor.

Try making the top part of the prefs like this:

Code: Select all

disk HD
disk Games
cdrom L:\
cdrom Disk\colonization.cue
extfs 
Make sure there is no actual CD, SheepShaver can handle only one CD at a time.

If it does not work, you could try removing the line

Code: Select all

cdrom L:\
Lopez72
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

Good morning,

thanks a lot for your answer and suggestions, i did this exactly:
- there is no CD in my Windows computer
- I changed this "cdrom Disk\colonization.cue"
- I then tested it and later also changed this in the settings and remove the line "cdrom L:\"
into:

disk HD
disk Games
cdrom Disk\colonization.cue
extfs

Unfortunately, both tests always gave the same result:
Image
- The CD image was not recognized at all and unfortunately did not appear under Mac OS, what else can you do?

Thank you!
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

I have no more suggestions. Sorry.
Maybe someone with more experience with SheepShaver on Windows can help you.
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Lopez72 »

Alright, then I assume that you have a Mac and therefore the problem only occurs on Windows computers that use the emluator (sheepshaver)?
I'm just trying to narrow down the problem because you don't have the problem.
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

With a CD created from the image, apart from the missing music, your results looked more like mine: only 27 tracks available.
I suppose that is the way to go on a Windows host. (Physical CDs cannot be mounted in SheepShaver on macOS.)
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Ronald P. Regensburg
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Re: BIN/CUE support

Post by Ronald P. Regensburg »

The developer kanjitalk755 tried a Windows build, built with

Code: Select all

./configure --with-bincue
and the game Colonization (same download from Macintosh Garden) played with the music.

Cat_7 wrote that the builds presented here by him are built with

Code: Select all

./configure --with-bincue
Now, what could be different here?
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