A/UX AppleTalk information

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Mk.558
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A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

I'm looking for some information about A/UX and AppleTalk.

Version 1.1 I don't know if it even has a Chooser. All the screenshots I've seen don't have any of that shown.

Version 2.0 runs with System 6, so I'm assuming it comes with AppleShare 2.0. EtherTalk? Maybe?

Version 3.0 comes with System 7, so I'm assuming that it comes with AppleShare Client 7.0, but nothing further.

I don't have a CD-ROM drive to install A/UX, so I'm hoping someone might already have an install somewhere who can check. I'm guessing these top out in terms of connection at 10.2 Jaguar, since that was the last one to still have bi-directional AppleTalk. 10.3.9 might work connecting to an A/UX 3.0 server if you swap the File Sharing Extension out, but I'm not sure.

Anybody have more info?
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

Mk.558 wrote: Sun Feb 25, 2024 9:15 pm I'm looking for some information about A/UX and AppleTalk.

Version 1.1 I don't know if it even has a Chooser. All the screenshots I've seen don't have any of that shown.

Version 2.0 runs with System 6, so I'm assuming it comes with AppleShare 2.0. EtherTalk? Maybe?

Version 3.0 comes with System 7, so I'm assuming that it comes with AppleShare Client 7.0, but nothing further.

I don't have a CD-ROM drive to install A/UX, so I'm hoping someone might already have an install somewhere who can check. I'm guessing these top out in terms of connection at 10.2 Jaguar, since that was the last one to still have bi-directional AppleTalk. 10.3.9 might work connecting to an A/UX 3.0 server if you swap the File Sharing Extension out, but I'm not sure.

Anybody have more info?
The other thing to take into consideration is: AppleShare over AppleTalk (DDP), or AppleShare IP? AppleShare IP was first implemented with Mac OS 7.6; AppleShare over AppleTalk support was removed from OS X with the release of Snow Leopard (10.6).

I've tested AppleShare over AppleTalk with AppleShare 3.2, and that works for me up to OS X 10.4.

This table from Wikipedia seems to spell out the general support:

(sorry, this forum doesn't appear to support BBCode tables)
[table]
[tr][th]AppleTalk version[/th][th]Apple Filing Protocol[/th][th]Corresponds to[/th][th]Notes[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]56[/th][th]-[/th][th]ystem 7.0[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th][/th][th]57.0.4[/th][th]-[/th][th]System 7.12[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]58.1.1[/th][th]-[/th][th]System 7.1.2[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]58.1.3[/th][th]-[/th][th]System 7.5[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]60.3[/th][th]-[/th][th]Mac OS 7.6.1[/th][th]Open Transport 1.3[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]60.0a6[/th][th]-[/th][th]Mac OS 8.6[/th][th]Open Transport 2.0.3[/th][/tr]
[tr][th]-[/th][th]3.0[/th][th]Mac OS X 10.0.3[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]-[/th][th]2.1, 2.0 and even 1.1[/th][th]Mac OS X v10.2[/th][th][/th[/tr]
[tr][th]-[/th][th]2.2, 3.0 and 3.1[/th][th]Mac OS X v10.3[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[tr][th]-[/th][th]3.2[/th][th]Mac OS X v10.4[/th][th][/th][/tr]
[/table]
Mk.558
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

Thanks for the reply.

I could probably look at A/UX again if I got a ZuluSCSI or something for which I can just dump pre-made A/UX volume on there and roll with it. Otherwise, yeah I gave up yesterday. Too much work.

I'm pretty sure A/UX won't have AFP over TCP/IP. That wasn't even available until like, 1995, and while you can get 7.1 to use AFP over TCP it caps out at 10.4, but it does do it. Pending confirmation, 8.0 will do up to the max of 10.14.

I've basically written this:

Image

Not sure if that's enough or not.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Cat_7 »

I could probably look at A/UX again if I got a ZuluSCSI or something for which I can just dump pre-made A/UX volume on there and roll with it
You can run A/UX 3.1 in Qemu: https://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/m6 ... s_in_macos
It emulates the dp83932. There is no AFP over TCP/IP. There is MacTCP and Localtalk and EtherTalk. There is no DHCP.

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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

'Preciate the response. Any chance you have info on A/UX 2.0? Information on A/UX 1.1 is very limited. I don't even know what the Apple menu looks like.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

Mk.558 wrote: Wed Feb 28, 2024 3:19 am 'Preciate the response. Any chance you have info on A/UX 2.0? Information on A/UX 1.1 is very limited. I don't even know what the Apple menu looks like.
A few things to help there:
viewtopic.php?t=8288 - I believe Shoebill is the only emulator that can emulate A/UX 1.1 and 2.0 (qemu-system-m68k only does 3.x).
https://www.aux-penelope.com/aux_2.0.htm - the go-to source for anything A/UX related -- https://www.aux-penelope.com/screenshots.htm gives you screenshots, including for 2.0.

[edit] I just realized... based on https://www.aux-penelope.com/hardware.htm, it MAY be possible that MAME will now run A/UX 0.7 through 2.0.1... has anyone checked to see?

[edit2] and to get back to the original topic, that last page also states:
The comp.unix.aux FAQ lists the Apple EtherNet card, 3Com EtherLink NB, Asante MacCon, and StarNet cards as compatible. I haven't tried it myself, but I'm told the 10Mb Cabletron Ethernet card works in A/UX 3.0.1 - driver disk Others might work, but your safest option is to choose a Macintosh with onboard ethernet like one of the Quadras. Personally, I have used the MacCon MC3NB under A/UX versions 2.0 and 3.X with success. As with the cd-rom drive, if you get an unsupported network card to work, please let me know!
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

Huh. Yeah I have a IIci and a SE/30, both of which could run A/UX but I don't have a CD-ROM drive or something like a ZuluSCSI. MG does have a A/UX 2.0 install that comes on like, 31 + 1 floppies (all 800KiB disks... sigh) but I kind of gave up. I do know that people have ready-to-go A/UX 3.0 images, but no 2.0 or 1.1 images. All I'm curious about is what kind of AppleTalk compatibility they have. Unless I'm seriously mistaken, A/UX 1.1 only runs on a Macintosh II with the PMMU upgrade (so basically, IIx-ish) or emulation.

It would be nice to have ready-to-go A/UX 2.0 on an image. I have a compatible, or I believe compatible NICs for both the SE/30 and the IIci. They both use National Semiconductor DP series chips.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

This may be of help? https://archive.org/details/auxhandbook00harr
The book is version 1.1, the A/UX is version 2.0.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/aux-faq/part3/ also has some interesting things to note on the subject; it appears that what Appletalk protocol version A/UX SAYS it is and what it actually supports differ, and what gets implemented is a feature set that doesn't directly line up with a particular Appletalk version.
Last edited by adespoton on Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

mmmh. A/UX is such an interesting but messy affair. Interesting find on the book though.

Maybe I'll redouble my efforts to get A/UX 2.0 on the IIci with 800k floppies. Can't say I'm looking forward to it, but maybe I'm in the best position to find out.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

Image

A/UX 2.0.0. Process was a little bit of a hassle but not too bad. Without the installation manual you'll be in the dark installing from...31 + 4? floppies. All of which are 800Ks and I only had 3 good ones.

There's no Network control panel. You can't switch to EtherTalk if you wanted to. Maybe you can install NSI for A/UX? I'll check that shortly. MacTCP cannot be configured and does nothing. I'm sure the IP config is all done in the command line.

Wondering about A/UX 3.0...

E: Installing the Ethernet NB driver for A/UX did nothing. It told me to update the kernel, which I did, but by default the installation already comes with a compatible Ethernet driver. Huh. Does A/UX 3.0 have a Network control panel?
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by emendelson »

If you have a modern Mac, you can run A/UX 3.0 in QEMU with one click (or two):

https://mendelson.org/auxrunner.html

Its control panels include Network and Mac TCP.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

I'm soon planning to create some CHDs for MAME that boot A/UX 1.x and 2.x -- I found a useful little checklist on a Tech Info CD from 1992 that should help.

Don't forget about A/UX 2.0.1 for a fully patched 2.x, and A/UX 3.1 + Tune-Up 2.0 for the 3.x series!
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

ya I was at work thinking, I should just check out A/UX 3 in QEMU to at least try.

I kind of want to see a bit more of A/UX 1.1, but there's not much out there on the net.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

Does anybody have a ready-to-go A/UX 1.1 image or .dsk for Shoebill?
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

Mk.558 wrote: Sun Mar 17, 2024 2:24 pm Does anybody have a ready-to-go A/UX 1.1 image or .dsk for Shoebill?
There's no dsk, just the iso. You can boot the iso directly, but beware, as shoebill will mount it read/write.

There are instructions on https://aux-penelope.com/aux_1.0.htm for using A/UX 3.0 to take the 1.1.1 image and restore it to a larger partition. If you're not planning to do any serious work, you can just boot a copy of the iso directly, though.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

Huh. I must be doing something wrong. All I get is the single-user mode...AUX Penelope says to modify /etc/inittab, but I can't even get vi to function correctly (it says it can't determine the shell used, which should be sh). (Not that I'd know how to use vi though.)

Image

Not sure how our friend Penelope is getting the other displays...
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

Mk.558 wrote: Tue Mar 19, 2024 3:41 am Huh. I must be doing something wrong. All I get is the single-user mode...AUX Penelope says to modify /etc/inittab, but I can't even get vi to function correctly (it says it can't determine the shell used, which should be sh). (Not that I'd know how to use vi though.)

Image

Not sure how our friend Penelope is getting the other displays...
So you're still getting the SASH prompt after recompiling 3.0 with the 1.x filesystem support, then building out a new disk image with larger partition size, then copying the iso contents over and rebooting?

The easiest way to kickstart the process is probably to boot into 3.0 and use IT to modify the 1.1.1 inittab. I personally haven't got that far yet.

Oh, and from inside SASH, I found that sh didn't work very well, but csh and ksh are both there and operable.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

hmmmph yeah that sounds like a weekend project I'll give a whirl and see if maybe I can swing a .dsk with A/UX 1.1.1 ready to go for Shoebill for macintosh garden or something.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

Mk.558 wrote: Wed Mar 20, 2024 1:22 am hmmmph yeah that sounds like a weekend project I'll give a whirl and see if maybe I can swing a .dsk with A/UX 1.1.1 ready to go for Shoebill for macintosh garden or something.
Please do! That's been on my to-do list for a month or so, and while I'm getting closer, I'm not there yet.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Cat_7 »

I've now got images of A/UX 1.1.1 and 2.1 that boot with Shoebill.

I encounter several issues:
-with 2.1 I get an error saying login respawns too quickly. This seems to indicate a config error somewhere.
-with 1.1.1 I boot into the console, no desktop. Even though I edited the default sysinit/runlevel

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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

Cat_7 wrote: Thu Mar 21, 2024 7:34 am I've now got images of A/UX 1.1.1 and 2.1 that boot with Shoebill.

I encounter several issues:
-with 2.1 I get an error saying login respawns too quickly. This seems to indicate a config error somewhere.
-with 1.1.1 I boot into the console, no desktop. Even though I edited the default sysinit/runlevel

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Cat_7
Hmm. The Oreo screenshot you see floating around is a screen capture that's on the 1.1.1 iso itself, but I've also seen a screen capture of Neozeed running the desktop on 1.1.1 in Shoebill in Windows -- so it's possible. Supposedly 0.7 doesn't boot to the desktop however, just a console with some Mac-like menu bar dressing.

Cat_7, did you get to a full console, or just SASH (Stand Alone SHell)? SASH has limited functionality, and is primarily designed for troubleshooting and repair.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

I can't do it.

Trying to run Apple HD SC Setup inside Shoebill with A/UX 3.0.1 causes it to nuke the system (as in, it appears to corrupt itself)

Can't run HD SC Setup inside Basilisk II or Mini vMac to partition a disk image correctly for A/UX

Tried attaching a blank disk image to Shoebill like so:

C:\win32\shoebill.exe disk0=appleunix.dsk disk1=AUX111.img rom=MacII.rom

... got me nowhere. (AUX111.img is a blank disk image I made with qemu-img.)

Cat_7 probably gets the same SASH session I do. Nothing really works.

I'm beginning to think I'd need a real Macintosh II with the PMMU upgrade and a BlueSCSI or something. Installing onto that and touching as little as possible would mean we could simply...copy the disk image out of the BlueSCSI.

Mostly I'm curious what AppleTalk option(s) are available on A/UX 1.1.1. A/UX 2.0 on my IIci was interesting, but only briefly, and I'm not much of a UNIX nerd to appreciate it, not to mention the quirkyness of it (which is cool in a way) doesn't offset what value I can get out of it because A/UX doesn't like a lot of software. A/UX 3.0 within Shoebill -- meh. Heard it's slow on a real machine, even on a fast 68030 like my IIci. It's got a 240MB drive in it if I remember right, and yeah A/UX gobbled up the whole disk and left me with very little to play with (even complained about file space).

E: I think what's happening is that the System Folder is there and all, but it is set to auto-start the SASH program on the CD. UNIX at this early stage sure sucks hard compared to modern level. fdisk -l to list volumes? not happening. Auto-completion? Nope. Anyways I can't figure out how to exit the SASH program. You can type

init 2

to SASH session to multi-user, that's about as far as I got.

E2: I had another idea, and it didn't work. I was gonna try to format a disk image to A/UX compatible, but HD SC Setup only recognizes SCSI volumes. I plan on getting a BlueSCSI soon, pretty sure I can get that to work. Since there's like, no documentation available anywhere for A/UX 1.x, I'm assuming you just use System Setup and Readme disk to format the disk, install a System 6.0.4 version on it (A/UX 2.0 did not like System 6.0.8 on my IIci, I think it uses a specific modified version of 6.0.5 or something instead), then you have some kind of installation process. I don't know.

What I want to do is make a Shoebill/Real Machine bootable image that you can load on a BlueSCSI which has "enough" A/UX storage but also "enough" Macintosh space. I'm thinking a 160MB image is fine: more than generous for / (which would be ~118MB), but a 40MB Macintosh partition as well.

May have to do the same thing for A/UX 2.0.
Last edited by Mk.558 on Fri Mar 22, 2024 3:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Cat_7 »

I ran the "installations" (copy of cd content to disk) for 1.1.1 and 2.1 with Qemu running A/UX 3.11. I then booted the resulting disks in shoebill.

I also changed the initlevel by editing the appropriate file from inside Qemu A/UX 3.11
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by adespoton »

If you're setting up an A/UX 3.x environment, it's probably best to use QEMU-M68k for that, as it supports SCSI and so theoretically should support HD SC Setup. This environment could then be used to set up the 1.1.1 target image and copy the iso contents over, and set the init.

Then the result could be booted in Shoebill.

But if Cat_7 is finding he still ends up in SASH after doing the migration, there's something else going on here. I haven't had time to set aside for digging into why init is heading straight to SASH instead of a full terminal/desktop; I know Neozeed solved this a decade ago, but his blog doesn't indicate what he did to get it working, either in the guest environment (which wouldn't have included QEMU) or by hacking ShoeBill for Windows.
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Re: A/UX AppleTalk information

Post by Mk.558 »

Good idea. I'll give that a crack soon.
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